Zenith Comics: A Question?

[urbwar]

I re-read my last post, and realize that tone of my post came off more harshly than I had intended it to be. I still disagree with certain things, but my comments to that effect could have been worded better. My apologies to AslanC for that.

Mr. Jupiter, your comments on the Hero Pack were much more precise than mine turned out. People keep making a big deal about the quantity of characters, but the quality is lacking with many of them. The lack of info on the characters is also a minus. The second one looks like it will be a worthwhile project, as Dan is being more meticulous with the layout and such. But as it stands, Hero Pack 1 isn't as great as some people keep making it out to be.

[kevperrine]

I re-read my last post, and realize that tone of my post came off more harshly than I had intended it to be. I still disagree with certain things, but my comments to that effect could have been worded better. My apologies to AslanC for that.

Mr. Jupiter, your comments on the Hero Pack were much more precise than mine turned out. People keep making a big deal about the quantity of characters, but the quality is lacking with many of them. The lack of info on the characters is also a minus. The second one looks like it will be a worthwhile project, as Dan is being more meticulous with the layout and such. But as it stands, Hero Pack 1 isn't as great as some people keep making it out to be.

Adding my 2 cents...
I may be in the guilt column for adding to the fires of the "value" of that Hero Pack. But here's my thought.

I bought it. With glee!
The art (to me) fits a certain silver age fun and flavor. It's not as nice and precise as the Bruce Timm style art out there, but it's what I would call "charming". So that IS a solid value to me, getting dozens and dozens of neat images.
The writing... I could care less for the stat blocks. They give me no value as I am not interested in the ICONS game rules. However, the idea begin the image + name + (the idea for) powers of each NPC is perfectly * for my interests. I would enjoy a very short (3-4 paragraphs max) biography on each NPC, but you know what..? Even without that they live up to my *needs* as a Narrator, because the IDEA and the spark of imagination is what I really am buying.

This hits back on points made in this thread.

Can *anyone* make a character/idea of good a value? Yes. Because the value is in the eye of the beholder. I like to think all of my ideas are great (they're not). And I'm positive my comic-fu can help me generate great ideas to fill my needs. So there would need to be a massive value-added for a higher price point to be worth fewer characters.

Was the Hero Pack built cheaply and does that mean it skews the pricing per NPC? Probably... but who cares? Seriously. As a consumer - I just don't care. It's been mentioned that there is need to know the full details to really understand... but again - as a consumer, I don't care. I'm getting all this awesome for this little price. I WANT MORE of that now!!

And back to the original product idea presented for building here. Here's what I would suggest.

- DO IT! Publish it. Get it out there. One big bonus to the Hero Pack is that it's great material that's ready for me to use NOW. It (honestly) seems like with (we) BASH! hobby publishers and larger BASH! publishers are just not getting anything to market quickly enough, compared to other brands - specifically the oft-compared ICONS. If folks would just get the stuff done and ready to buy... then we'd see what the market bares. [NOTE: I'm not scolding anyone, I'm talking to MYSELF here as much as anyone]

- Villains vs. Heroes: To be frank, as a Narrator I don't care about your (the royal YOU, not specifically Zenith) "universe", I don't care about your pet heroes. If they come in the core rules, in a supplement, in an adventure - great... I'll look at them. Maybe I can use the image of the *hero* to twist it into a villain of some sort for my own games. Seriously... Narrators *need* villains, adversaries, enemies. Not more heroes. The players take those roles. Players hate nothing more than the deus ex machina of the Mary-Sue hero coming in to save the day. Why do I need them as a Narrator?

- What Narrators *need*? This niche of the RPG industry is one of superheroes and supervillains, so naturally that's image heavy. I'd say that for a "book" of characters (or even a city supplement) the Narrator *NEEDS* imagery to inspire most. A very very close second would be BASH! stats. A great solid well designed set of stats. Not completely complex, just solid. I'd suggest to create more and more "templates" and "archetypes" of familiar villains (and heroes AS villains). I'd also suggest that in those stats we have a "Narrator's Commentary" - as in WHY was it built this way? To help other Narrators consider the cool build idea, and options for altering the build.


Lastly....
And this is hopefully something that can give back and help your idea ... to go ALONG with your pricing plan.
As is, 1-2 characters for $1-2 is tough to swallow. HOWEVER, I will completely take that back by saying that IF fans/Narrators had those 1-2 character packs to buy each and every week, on schedule, without fail. THEN, I think they'd be worth something! (ie. the $1-2 price you're thinking).
The key here is that the quantity and timeliness changes the value... If I'm a Narrator and see "this week's" two awesome new Villains that I can buy right now and have full stats, an image and basic background idea - I can feature them in my campaign this week!! HOORAH!!

Then later, you can bundle them for a reduced rate.
Heck, you might even do that on a "limited time" availability to entice purchase. "Buy it this week, 'cause they'll be gone in 2 weeks!" (putting each "lot" on a two-week cycle.


Who knows though...
That's just my opinion. Take it all with grains of salt.

My big beef with any of this is ... that with all the awesome of the 4-5 key people I see here on the BASH! boards that I have seen (and heard about) great work "coming" from. It kills me, because I think.... *we* should get together and help each other make things, a sort of fan-universe that we team-up on projects with to get them out faster!! Sort of like how IMAGE comics jumped away from the individual publishing to help the group make their own in a "slightly shared universe" that aided the entire group in getting the stuff actually published on time.


I can't seem to help that happen. Even though I've tried. It seems we all are so independent on our own project ideas, that it's very very hard to come together... [Note: again, I am including myself here - not just throwing stones, hehehe]


-kev-

[drkrash]

@urbwar: You have echoed my sentiments exactly on the Hero Pack. I know it's off topic, but I wanted to note that. (I find you and I to be in agreement on most things, actually.)

@kev: These were useful reflections. I can tell you that I will be hitting many of your points in my proposed product (hopefully product line), but honestly, not all of them (e.g., you'll have to villainize my heroes! )

As for the shared universe idea, two comments:
1) I think individual ideas are important; making them a shared universe means a lot of shared assumptions about the universe, and that could kill cool ideas individuals may have.
2) Chris is trying to do a shared universe with Megapolis, isn't he?

Anyway, this poor thread is so totally off topic it's not even funny.

[drkrash]

I was thinking more about Aslan's planned release schedule and I wanted to agree that kev has a point. If the material comes out regularly, that can justify a different price point.

Aslan, you might even look into a subscription service through OBS (who I assume will be distributing your stuff), with a discount for subscribers.

I know I bought into this with Savage World's War of the Dead. 13 parts are released over about 4 months and subscribers get an email when the next part is available. In turn, by paying up front, we got about 30% off.

As a result, I spent $20 for a combined 130-page PDF. I can tell you: I generally do not pay that much for that short of a PDF. But the quality was good and the content came out regularly, so I jumped on board.

I can tell you that I would be very interested in this model.

[Nestor]

I'm not sure if this comment adds anything to the discussion, but if presented with a character write-up, one thing that would be useful to me are tips on how to integrate them into an existing game.

Elements like plot hooks or adventure seeds involving the character help in making the character ready for use.

[AslanC]

Here's what I suggest

Super illai s will release VERY soon (early to mid next week barring misadventure). See how the prentation is therein and understand that what I propose will be noless detailed and may have more.

I am considering adding mini scenarios to the folios (nothing too involved, just a location map and an encounter). This is NOT part of Supervillains! as of first issue, future volumes perhaps.

Once you see what I do I think you will be very happy

[Samuraidad]

Here's what I suggest

Super illai s will release VERY soon (early to mid next week barring misadventure). See how the prentation is therein and understand that what I propose will be noless detailed and may have more.

I am considering adding mini scenarios to the folios (nothing too involved, just a location map and an encounter). This is NOT part of Supervillains! as of first issue, future volumes perhaps.

Once you see what I do I think you will be very happy

Cool, I like the idea of mini adventures. I've always appreciated it when an author will give adventure hooks with a villains right up as ideas by which that villain might be used. So, maybe these are kind of like an expanded adventure hook?

So their not a part of V1? That's ok, good gravy man, just release it!

Btw, I've been meaning to tell you that I am particularly interested in seeing the A.S.G.A.R.D book come out. I'm a sucker for SHIELD analogs. And hey, it's just a cool name.

[drkrash]

Ditto on ASGARD for me.

[AslanC]

I re-read my last post, and realize that tone of my post came off more harshly than I had intended it to be. I still disagree with certain things, but my comments to that effect could have been worded better. My apologies to AslanC for that.

Thank you.

No harm, no foul.

We are all friends and sometimes I may have slightly thin skin.

I still am your friend.

[Artbod]

As you might have seen I'm doing something simlar with my Power Pics on drivethru. When i started them 18 months ago a single piece of 300 dpi art was selling on there for $4, so I put my stuff on there for $2 (color, b&w + greyscale art plus fold up minis) and was told in a review i was charing too much even at half the competions price.
So I decided to mark my stuff to $.99 and sales picked up but I'm stilll only charging that even though now I added stats to make them more useful which obviously takes more time to complete. Its a real tough one and dont forget drivethru take a pecentage too so im now actually taking home $.67 per pdf which for 8-10 hrs work isn't massive.

[kroh]

My response to the reviewer would have been to Bl*w it somewhere uncomfortable. This is obviously not a person who is familiar with art production... My personal thing is this... [rant]

**I am not a chump and I DO NOT work for free or for peanuts

**I am not some eighteen year old pimple faced wanna be art school hopeful and have worked in graphic design for years.

**I would challenge any reviewer (who isn't above 18 year old or 40 year old living in his mom's basement who thinks playing a dice game where he pretends to be a faerie for 20 years makes him something special) to work for less than 10 dollars an hour at a real job (and since art like this is a real job due to the time involved).

** Your art is good man... your prices are MORE than reasonable and if they disagree, tell them to go talk to some one like Storn Cook or Wayne Reynolds about pricing and try and bash them (and watch how fast they get hit with a no contact order from some one like Paizo or Hero games. [/rant]

Oh and did I mention above reviewer should blow it out somewhere uncomfortable?

I could use stronger language and metaphors but i have played and worked in this hobby for a LONG time... i don't want to scare off my audience...

...any more than I just have...

P.S. LOVE your art !

[AslanC]

**I am not a chump and I DO NOT work for free or for peanuts

Oh that reminds me, your case of peanuts has arrived, where should I forward them to sir?

[drkrash]

As one of the repentent naysayers of this thread, I've been giving this a lot of thought (planning on buying the ape, BTW).

Why did I balk at a buck for one character?

If I thought past my hypocrisy, I would have quickly realized the risk it would be for me to publish the same thing. Based on the price for art that I'm usually willing to pay as a tiny publisher, I'd realize that at $1, I'd be at best making my money back. And honestly, my gut wouldn't be happy with that, because I put time and effort into making it sellable. But if people balk at $1, they'd rightfully balk at $2 even more.

So what's the issue? I think the issue is that gamers consider art to be frosting on the cake. They expect it to be there, they complain if it's not there, but it's the trickiest part of the whole cake to do. Gamers want text - and they see: 1 character, 1 dollar, and don't see value. The art doesn't enter their conscious thought on many occasions.

I’m still working through this; part of me is still not excited to spend a buck for a single character.

But the artists here are TOTALLY justified in the way they feel.

Please accept my contrition and keep cranking out stuff while I’m still financially solvent enough to keep buying one dollar characters for a game I love.

[Artbod]

I've seen The fight RPG on drivethru and it looks like a nice piece of work. Did you consider repricing it to app pricing? I hope not, because if everyone does so no one will ever be able to be a small press publisher and make money.
The Super setting book I've been working on for ages is hopefully getting finished soon and as soon as I saw that full rpgs were selling for the cost of 2 of my power pics my heart sunk. At at least 96 page long when it's finished surely i should make something back on it?

[drkrash]

Thanks for the kind words about Fight!.

TBH, I have NEVER considered app pricing for the book. I understand the model and I can see how it works for some publishers; I'm not one of them.

Now, in truth, I've made a profit on Fight; as such, because it's an electronic product, I COULD app price it, and I suspect I'd sell quite a few copies. After all, sales for very little are better than no sales at all, right?

But I can't do it. It represents 11 years of my life and I can't throw it out there for a couple bucks. And it bugs me sometimes to know that there are plenty of consumers who may be interested in it, but see a price point above $10 and turn away. But I stick to my guns, and honestly, the impression I've gotten from OBS is that they want us to stick to our guns. If the consumer starts expecting whole games with art and layout and everything for $5, I can't compete.

My BASH book will probably be between 40-50 pages, but it’s the 1st book I’m doing in full color. Two artists are basically giving me their work (it helps that they are two of my closest friends) for a share of the profits. But to not insult them, I still can’t put this book out for $2. I have to find the perfect price point where it will sell, and yet, I can still be sure to make at least a little bit of money on it, for them, if not for me.

It’s tough for little guys like us.