Zenith Comics: A Question?

[kevperrine]

To each there own my friend, but the price of a candy bar for a complete character, full colour and with counters, seems like a pretty good deal to me.

AslanC, you know I won't go against you when it comes to your great work and efforts.
But... I'd offer there's a big difference between your comparison of the price of a candy bar and a character here is that I can't make a tasty Butterfinger in 15 minutes.... or at all actually.

Same said with a fully produced song (on iTunes for $1.) or renting a movie with OnDemand (for $5.).

Then again. If you can get it. Kudos to you!
-kev-

[AslanC]

What are Moreau Files?

[AslanC]

AslanC, you know I won't go against you when it comes to your great work and efforts.

Well that's good to know

But... I'd offer there's a big difference between your comparison of the price of a candy bar and a character here is that I can't make a tasty Butterfinger in 15 minutes.... or at all actually.

The same could be said for roster books as well no? Why spend $1, $2 or any value on a roster book that you could whip up in 15, 30, etc... mins?

App pricing was started by Adamant recently, who then dropped the Hero Pack for $1.99 on the market. Hobby publishers can't compete with that. 120 characters + 2 Covers + Layout? Costs for a hobby publisher would be at least $2000 (and that's with a VERY good deal on the art). It is a shame that this may become seen as a standard and fair value by the hobby purchasers, since really it would be almost impossible to compete.

Same said with a fully produced song (on iTunes for $1.) or renting a movie with OnDemand (for $5.).

And those have production costs as well, just like the Butterfinger and hero/villain packs.

Not sure I agree that the average person can produce the same quality in 15 minutes.

Then again. If you can get it. Kudos to you!

Um... thanks?

I am not trying to "get" anything. I am trying to put my company out there, this isn't about making mountains of cash and retiring to an island paradise (though what a nice time THAT would be ). It is about growing the Zenith name and product to provide more and more material for all involved.

Walt and I kicked around some ideas, the ideas were to simply have a weekly/bi-weekly product, as Vigilance does, that would provide good product for a good value.

1 character (hero or villain) for .99 cents is not overpriced... or at least it wasn't until the Hero Pack dropped and you can get 120 for only $2.

As I have said elsewhere, I will have to rethink this whole thing since the reaction of those where I have asked about it is decidedly con, very few pro.

Thanks for taking the time everyone, back to the lab I go.

[urbwar]

App pricing was started by Adamant recently, who then dropped the Hero Pack for $1.99 on the market. Hobby publishers can't compete with that. 120 characters + 2 Covers + Layout? Costs for a hobby publisher would be at least $2000 (and that's with a VERY good deal on the art). It is a shame that this may become seen as a standard and fair value by the hobby purchasers, since really it would be almost impossible to compete.

I think you are making too big a deal in regards to the Hero Pack. Adamant wasn't initially involved in the project. The artist started it, and he was paid up front for each character.
Since they added the characters from the book, I doubt they spent more than $160.00 - 200.00 on art. The rest was all precommissioned before they were ever involved.

If you're going to make a comparison, do so when the Villainomicon comes out, as that was a project where they actually had to pay for art and layout, etc. If that sells well at 1.99, then yeah it will be hard to beat.

I also seriously doubt it will have too big an impact on the genre as a whole. Unless Green Ronin and Hero games decided to follow suit, there will still be room for supplements priced higher. Vigilance Press is still doing those hero supplements priced at 7 - 8 bucks, and they still sell enough to warrant future volumes. But the Hero Pack is the exception, not the rule imho

As for the Moreau files: It's a short supplement featuring 2 characters (at least the second one is; I can't recall how many were in the first one). do a search on RPGNow/Drivethru, and you'll see the details

[AslanC]

I think you are making too big a deal in regards to the Hero Pack. Adamant wasn't initially involved in the project. The artist started it, and he was paid up front for each character.

As I well know, since I was there at the start man, as were you.

Making a big deal is when every place (V&V included) I have probed on this has mentioned Hero Pack. That's not a big deal, that a market perception.

At least from my perception.

Since they added the characters from the book, I doubt they spent more than $160.00 - 200.00 on art. The rest was all precommissioned before they were ever involved.

I never said that's what they spent, I was talking about the actual value for a hobby publisher to produce a similar product.

If you're going to make a comparison, do so when the Villainomicon comes out, as that was a project where they actually had to pay for art and layout, etc. If that sells well at 1.99, then yeah it will be hard to beat.

That's the price it is supposed to be selling for. ALL Adamant product will sell for $1.99 electronically, as announced by GMS himself.

I don't think you understand what I am saying, perhaps I haven't made my point.

When gaging interest in 1 hero/villain books for .99 I was told in all 3 of the places I asked about the incredible value of the Hero Pack (120 characters/$1.99) and a direct line is drawn as that being what I would be competing with as a value for price model.

Now anyone involved knows this is impossible to compare, but for the average Joe purchaser who sees this value may think "Why would I spend a dollar on this, when I can spend 2 dollars on that and get 120 times the value?"

I am talking about market perception.

I also seriously doubt it will have too big an impact on the genre as a whole. Unless Green Ronin and Hero games decided to follow suit, there will still be room for supplements priced higher. Vigilance Press is still doing those hero supplements priced at 7 - 8 bucks, and they still sell enough to warrant future volumes. But the Hero Pack is the exception, not the rule imho

Didn't Viglance just drop a $1.99 product?

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php? ... ers_id=437

My bad, $1

In fact their line has seen a volume drop to $1 - 2 across the board except for the Field Guide to Superheroes which stays higher priced, oh and the USHER Dossiers.

This app pricing model is what is happening, here and now man. It is a reality that all superhero hobby publishers are going to be competing with.

As for the Moreau files: It's a short supplement featuring 2 characters (at least the second one is; I can't recall how many were in the first one). do a search on RPGNow/Drivethru, and you'll see the details

Found it.

[kroh]

all superhero hobby publishers

There are more of them out there?[joke]

In any case, any product with trade dress on it that hits the 'shelves' is going to raise perception of the core brand. But, let's get away from that because this is a SUPERHERO board.... Let's talk some action and spandex (oh if I had a dollar...)

I think something that would be very cool would be to introduce Zenith to the world. We have seen Lady America (including in Iraq... I have the pics to prove it).


Who else IS Zenith?

Look at some of the other crews... You have the Champions who started with Seeker and Defender (the team was just plain goofy but I loved them) and moved onto their current incarnation and now you have M&M following suit (had original characters and moved into a new model with a new edition).

What about putting out scenarios where the Dream Team (let's face it, RPG's are a team sport and if it is one on one then it gets's a little weird sometime) is detailed and displayed for use in the back of every book (for when folks need a super). These would not be full adventures but a straight up comic book panel or scene.

There are so many ways to get Zenith out there and I think AslanC is showing his zealousness and love for something that has taken years to mold and take shape. I can definitely see him wanting to put it out there in the best possible light.

So you have seen Lady America... who else can you show us?

Regards,
Walt

[kroh]

stupid double post!

[AslanC]

Thanks Walt, I knew there was a reason I partnered up with you.

The Zenith Universe has over 500 heroes and villains (with more added all the time) but our flagship character is Lady America.

The other main character is Gyro (I'll post his pic when I get home).

After him there are many more. Walt is right, the idea is to get the Zenith Universe into the world with a series of products.

Following app pricing is logical, as is providing the maximum value I can without ruining myself. If that means folios of 1 or 2 characters as well as books of 10, so be it.

But this conversation has reminded me of my original intent. To give the heroes away for free. Villains cost

Hope you will all join me on this continuing journey!

Cheers!

[Samuraidad]

Correction on price, since both Vigilance and Brave Halfling have PDFs for under a dollar on RPGNOW, I will offer these for .99 each, every 10 compiled into a POD.

Seems reasonable no?

I think it's a very reasonable price.

[AslanC]

I think it's a very reasonable price.

Thanks, I was starting to feel alone and cold... and there were wolves chasing me... and I don`t like the look of those teenagers.

[AslanC]

Oh and Walt, Lady A looks badass on the back of that Hummer!

[CuMorrig]

I think it's a reasonable price as well. Particularly since it includes art and a nice layout.

[AslanC]

I think it's a reasonable price as well. Particularly since it includes art and a nice layout.

That's the plan mate

For those who feel .99$ is too much for 1 or 2 characters, that is more than fine. If I could I would sell my 10 roster books for $4.99, but the app pricing model will kill that market.

$1.99 is reasonable given what others are putting out.

.99$ is the only price I can charge for 1 or 2 characters and still afford the art.

Ultimately I would probably go with 1 or 2 characters over the books of 10... more cost effective for me.

Hobby publishing is a harsh mistress, specifically due to external costs.

Cheers!

[urbwar]

As I well know, since I was there at the start man, as were you.

I was not involved in the Hero Pack, because it was honestly (imho) a project that wasn't originally designed for public consumption. And I honestly wasn't impressed with the results either. The second one will likely be the one worth talking about, since Dan seems more focused on getting it right this tme.

Making a big deal is when every place (V&V included) I have probed on this has mentioned Hero Pack. That's not a big deal, that a market perception.

At least from my perception.

And they are foolish to do so. because they don't bother to find out the specifics. Hence my pointing out that Adamant paid squat for the project. When you get something literally for free, any price you charge is basically profit.

I never said that's what they spent, I was talking about the actual value for a hobby publisher to produce a similar product

It doesn't invalidate my point though. Anyone could have released that, and not pay what you quoted.

That's the price it is supposed to be selling for. ALL Adamant product will sell for $1.99 electronically, as announced by GMS himself.

I know that. My point is that you can't gage anything until Villainomicon is out. hero pack wasn't something they actually paid for in total, so it's success doesn't really count in my book. When they put out a book on their own, fully funded, and it does well, then I'll believe that their pricing is successful. So far, GMS hasn't been touting a success story yet. He's optimistic, but anyone would be when trying something so daring.

I don't think you understand what I am saying, perhaps I haven't made my point.

I got it, I just didn't agree with it.

When gaging interest in 1 hero/villain books for .99 I was told in all 3 of the places I asked about the incredible value of the Hero Pack (120 characters/$1.99) and a direct line is drawn as that being what I would be competing with as a value for price model.
['/quote]

I saw that. You also realize that those same people on at least one forum (the V&V one) didn't even buy the Hero Pack, since it wasn't for their system of choice. They tell you one thing, but they aren't * that FGU is going to sell their pdf's for 3 or 4 bucks.

Now anyone involved knows this is impossible to compare, but for the average Joe purchaser who sees this value may think "Why would I spend a dollar on this, when I can spend 2 dollars on that and get 120 times the value?"

I am talking about market perception.

I've seen one other thread you did on this, and a small minority who made comments doesn't equate to market perception, imho. You're taking the comments of 3 or 4 people, and making it sound like that is how everyone feels. It isn't.

I'm not saying you're wrong to feel this way, but I think you're taking some people's comments out of proportion.

Didn't Viglance just drop a $1.99 product?

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php? ... ers_id=437

My bad, $1

That was the one I was talking about. It's 2 characters for a buck.

In fact their line has seen a volume drop to $1 - 2 across the board except for the Field Guide to Superheroes which stays higher priced, oh and the USHER Dossiers.

It's a special sale, only good until Wednesday. See: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=560709 for the details. Once the sale is over, the higher priced books will once again be higher priced.

This app pricing model is what is happening, here and now man. It is a reality that all superhero hobby publishers are going to be competing with.

I don't know if that is true just yet. I'll believe that when I see Green Ronin/Hero Games doing the same thing.

I don't have a problem with it, but posting incomplete or misinformation on the subject, that needs to be addressed. I don't feel you're wrong to be concerned about their pricing system. I just think using the Hero Pack as an example is a really bad way of doing so. Especially given that you pointed this out on another forum. I don't see the Hero Pack as influencing that many people.

On the other hand, the adventure "A Murder of Crows", which came out for Halloween, was in the top 20 sales list until this week. That is something that I'd say warrants touting their pricing model.

I'm sorry to be coming off so adversarial Aslan, but I just felt your use of the Hero Pack as an example of how their pricing model is going to change the industry is wrong. Their other products might make it work, but that one is an aberration, and the perception of a few ignorant people doesn't make it proper market perception. We can agree to disagree on the matter

[MrJupiter]

I'd like to point out that Hero Pack (HP) is not a fair comparison to Zenith Comic's offering. HP was MADE by many, many fans. What kind of payment did they recieve except to see their character in a published book? I should say that I'm not really sure what the arrangement is between the publisher and the contributors, but it seems like they got pretty much all the content, not counting the artwork, for free.

More on HP. If the book was just the art and zero hero names, stats, and description I don't think I'd bother to buy it. The art really helps to lift the value of the work but what really matters, what purchasers are really buying, are the characters; which they got for free (I think...).

AslanC, you are one guy with some great heroes and villains, not dozens. In my opinion, your giving them away cheap at $2 for 10. So don't sweat it.