elegant and creative rule uses?

[kevperrine]

One of the things I've learned about most all great rule systems is that the most elegant rule systems usually allow for some neat and creative uses of the rules.... making a simple rule more complex (or deep or granular) in nature - while still maintaining the simplicity of the basic rule.

I think of this as ELEGANT use of the rules for maximum optimization.


Having not (yet) played BASH!, I am curious to hear neat and creative builds or uses of stats/powers/skill, etc... That you might not at first "see" when building a character or playing at the table.

An example I read someone give is using an amount of "Armor" as a way of expressing very quick healing ability. (Would this be like the HULK? Or WOLVERINE? And if so, would he still have regeneration too?)


What neat, creative.... elegant uses of powers, combinations, skills/specialties, etc... have you seen/used?


thanks!
-kev-

[Lindharin]

(Would this be like the HULK? Or WOLVERINE? And if so, would he still have regeneration too?)

There is no regeneration power, per se. There is Healing, but it requires you to spend your action, so more like a "Second Wind" from D&D than regeneration. So off the top of my head I'd consider Wolverine to have a base Brawn of 2. I'd give him some Healing to represent longer-term regen, but how much would depend on which version you prefer - I'm a fan of the early Wolvie where the healing factor wasn't so high, so I'd go with maybe Healing 2. To represent his combat regeneration I'd use Boost Brawn 3 Only For Soak/Resistance to bring that up to 5, defined as regen rather than pseudo-invulnerability. Then for the adamantium skeleton I'd buy Armor 3, Limitation: Bypassed by Called Shot, representing the attack that crushes his throat, cuts an artery, gets him in the eye, or whatever. If you want a version where he doesn't have the souped-up skeleton, then I think I read that his regen is supposed to be even higher without the adamantium interfering and you could replace it with Armor 2 or 3 defined as additional regen instead.

As for your main question, one thing that comes to mind is using Force Field to represent many examples of comic-book immobilizing attacks. Although there is an Immobilize power, it works best (IMO) as a less tangible effect. For something like Iceman freezing you in a block of ice, or the Torch putting you in a fire cage, or Spidey covering you from head to toe in webs, Force Field (or in Torch's case, the alternate Damage Field) works really well; it holds the target in place, it lets them try to get out without using Brawn (so Iceman can damage Torch's fire cage, and Torch can melt the ice block, etc), and people outside it cannot just whale on the helpless target because the force field is in the way.

I'm also a fan of using Telekinesis with the wrestling maneuvers. I love the wrestling maneuvers in general, much better than in most systems I've played, and TK works so well with them. We have a lot of fun with that in our game.

You can use Skillful with a limitation of (only when X) to represent a skill boost due to some power. For example, maybe a character who has fine/selective control over his Ghost Form could take Skillful 2 (4 skill picks), Limitation: Only while ghostly for 1 pt. He could then boost up his Security (Picking Locks) if he can reach in and flip the tumblers by selectively solidifying his finger tips, or raise his Stealth if he's kind of transparent or whatever.

Confusion can be used to represent a huge range of effects, especially once you throw in the special alternate versions of a lingering area or auto-effecting anyone who attacks you (a great way to have a Black Cat or Longshot style of lucky defense). The basic penalty to Agility can be described in so many ways, from "can't see the target" to "hit by bad luck and always tripping, slipping or accidentally blasting a piece of falling masonry instead of the real target", etc. Confusion is probably the power that seems the most flexible and widely used power from the Mental category in my game so far, and we have yet to have a purely "mental/psionic" version of it...

The Teamwork rules are great fun, and I think fairly elegant. I'd definitely recommend re-reading them (it's just a paragraph or two) before starting the first game.

[AslanC]

Great stuff Lindharin.

Just did an archer build last night that uses confusion as his flare arrow

Now that I think of it Extra Effect:In Darkness might be cool to add to it!

[Lindharin]

Oh, that is a great idea!

And on that note, add Extra Effect to the list. It is the "catch all" enhancement, and you can define it to be whatever the player/narrator agree on.

Similarly, the Susceptible disadvantage is a great catch-all disadvantage; there are lots of things you can use it for when the game effect is a dice penalty to a stat in X situation.

[kevperrine]

And on that note, add Extra Effect to the list. It is the "catch all" enhancement, and you can define it to be whatever the player/narrator agree on.

Similarly, the Susceptible disadvantage is a great catch-all disadvantage; there are lots of things you can use it for when the game effect is a dice penalty to a stat in X situation.

Any examples of either?

[Lindharin]

Hmm. I've used Susceptibility for social situations to represent the high-Mind genius who is socially inept (-3 dice penalty to all Mind rolls in social situations). I've also used it for a character who had poor control over his innate powers, and used a special power suit to help channel / control them, so he had a -3 dice penalty to all his power rolls if he didn't have the suit on.

For extra effect, one of my players had a robotic character that was built partly for demolitions work and had an Extra Effect against Structures (ie, collateral damage) on his attack powers. We had an electrical super who had Extra Effect vs. electronics. Both of those are fairly straight-forward, though. I've got a few more unique ones but I'm hoping they will see print, so I can't include them right now. Let me see if I can come up with more generic equivalents and I'll try to post some more later.

[BASHMAN]

Something that I was planning was that "extra effect" can be used for things beyond the +2 Multiplier bonus vs. X. These would mostly be flavor type things like:

Love Charm: "Mind Control [Limit: Only works on men] Extra effect: Those affected act as if they are in love w/ the user."

[BillionSix]

Something that I was planning was that "extra effect" can be used for things beyond the +2 Multiplier bonus vs. X. These would mostly be flavor type things like:

Love Charm: "Mind Control [Limit: Only works on men] Extra effect: Those affected act as if they are in love w/ the user."

Would you have to pay extra for that flavor? If acting like they are in love is just a style thing and has no extra effect, would you have to pay for it?

[BASHMAN]

That was a poor example. On second thought, I wouldn't think you'd need to pay extra for it.

[MrJupiter]

(Would this be like the HULK? Or WOLVERINE? And if so, would he still have regeneration too?)

There is no regeneration power, per se. There is Healing, but it requires you to spend your action, so more like a "Second Wind" from D&D than regeneration. So off the top of my head I'd consider Wolverine to have a base Brawn of 2. I'd give him some Healing to represent longer-term regen, but how much would depend on which version you prefer - I'm a fan of the early Wolvie where the healing factor wasn't so high, so I'd go with maybe Healing 2. To represent his combat regeneration I'd use Boost Brawn 3 Only For Soak/Resistance to bring that up to 5, defined as regen rather than pseudo-invulnerability. Then for the adamantium skeleton I'd buy Armor 3, Limitation: Bypassed by Called Shot, representing the attack that crushes his throat, cuts an artery, gets him in the eye, or whatever. If you want a version where he doesn't have the souped-up skeleton, then I think I read that his regen is supposed to be even higher without the adamantium interfering and you could replace it with Armor 2 or 3 defined as additional regen instead.

That’s an awesome representation of Wolverine’s adimantium skeleton. This is why I love BASH so much. I’ve come to believe that this is the most flexible supers rpg I’ve ever seen!

Hmm. I've used Susceptibility for social situations to represent the high-Mind genius who is socially inept (-3 dice penalty to all Mind rolls in social situations). I've also used it for a character who had poor control over his innate powers, and used a special power suit to help channel / control them, so he had a -3 dice penalty to all his power rolls if he didn't have the suit on.

For extra effect, one of my players had a robotic character that was built partly for demolitions work and had an Extra Effect against Structures (ie, collateral damage) on his attack powers. We had an electrical super who had Extra Effect vs. electronics. Both of those are fairly straight-forward, though. I've got a few more unique ones but I'm hoping they will see print, so I can't include them right now. Let me see if I can come up with more generic equivalents and I'll try to post some more later.

Oh you are, are you? Please post us some updates on this when you are ready to publish. I’d love to hear more…

[BASHMAN]

(Would this be like the HULK? Or WOLVERINE? And if so, would he still have regeneration too?)

There is no regeneration power, per se. There is Healing, but it requires you to spend your action, so more like a "Second Wind" from D&D than regeneration. So off the top of my head I'd consider Wolverine to have a base Brawn of 2. I'd give him some Healing to represent longer-term regen, but how much would depend on which version you prefer - I'm a fan of the early Wolvie where the healing factor wasn't so high, so I'd go with maybe Healing 2. To represent his combat regeneration I'd use Boost Brawn 3 Only For Soak/Resistance to bring that up to 5, defined as regen rather than pseudo-invulnerability. Then for the adamantium skeleton I'd buy Armor 3, Limitation: Bypassed by Called Shot, representing the attack that crushes his throat, cuts an artery, gets him in the eye, or whatever. If you want a version where he doesn't have the souped-up skeleton, then I think I read that his regen is supposed to be even higher without the adamantium interfering and you could replace it with Armor 2 or 3 defined as additional regen instead.

That’s an awesome representation of Wolverine’s adimantium skeleton. This is shy I love BASH so much. I’ve come to believe that this is the most flexible supers rpg I’ve ever seen!

Hmm. I've used Susceptibility for social situations to represent the high-Mind genius who is socially inept (-3 dice penalty to all Mind rolls in social situations). I've also used it for a character who had poor control over his innate powers, and used a special power suit to help channel / control them, so he had a -3 dice penalty to all his power rolls if he didn't have the suit on.

For extra effect, one of my players had a robotic character that was built partly for demolitions work and had an Extra Effect against Structures (ie, collateral damage) on his attack powers. We had an electrical super who had Extra Effect vs. electronics. Both of those are fairly straight-forward, though. I've got a few more unique ones but I'm hoping they will see print, so I can't include them right now. Let me see if I can come up with more generic equivalents and I'll try to post some more later.

Oh you are, are you? Please post us some updates on this when you are ready to publish. I’d love to hear more…

Lind you can go ahead and post an example from Age if you want.

[Lindharin]

Thanks, Bashman. I think the example we've got so far that is most unique (ie, furthest from the default +2 levels in situation X) is for Dionysus. He has the Animation power, with the Extra Effect that when he animates an object like a large barrel or a rope, he animates it as an equivalent-sized animal like a bear or a snake. That's partly just fluff, but it does have a mechanical effect: this gives him a little extra flexibility when choosing which powers to give the animated minion. Normally, animated objects can be given "powers that make sense" and the Extra Effect just makes that a little bit broader. For example, a "normal" animated rope could be given Immobilize, but Dionysus could opt to give his rope-animated-as-snake a continuing damage poison bite.

There would be other ways to buy that power in BASH (Summoning with the "Any Creature" enhancement and a limit about needing an appropriately sized object comes to my mind first) but they are all basically the same point cost, and giving the Animation power a custom Extra Effect is just a more elegant (IMO) way to express it.

[kevperrine]

There would be other ways to buy that power in BASH (Summoning with the "Any Creature" enhancement and a limit about needing an appropriately sized object comes to my mind first) but they are all basically the same point cost, and giving the Animation power a custom Extra Effect is just a more elegant (IMO) way to express it.

Hey!
I think that's neat. I'm not sure I see it as sparklingly elegant (yet)... but like I've noted, I have not actually PLAYED BASH! yet. So I may be missing a point for why that is more elegant. Please explain.
Why is it better to give an extra effect on power A. than to give a limitation on power B.?

(PS... not being snarky at all, sincerely looking to learn)

thanks
-kev-

[Lindharin]

Well, in part, this was intended more as an example of a non-standard use of Extra Effect (which I think was requested earlier in the thread, unless I've lost track of which thread I'm in ), but here's my reasoning for why I do think it is the more elegant solution:

In this case, I like using Animation as the base power because it is more evocative of the actual effect - he's animating the rope, and in the process gaining a non-standard benefit, not summoning a snake and "replacing" a rope that happened to be there. In practice, most of the time it won't make any difference, and either choice would work. But unexpected situations do come up and the narrator has to decide on the fly how a power will work when the character tries to do X. When that happens, in my opinion thinking of it as Animation is just conceptually the more appropriate choice, and the only reason not to use Animation is that it doesn't include a built-in enhancement like Summoning does to expand the range of powers allowable.

That's where the Extra Effect enhancement comes into play - it can function as a catch-all enhancement to fill in any gaps, make any necessary tweaks to really represent a concept when the base power is close-but-not-quite what you want.

And although I hadn't thought of it in these terms when I wrote the prior post, I think the inclusion of that catch-all option, from a game design perspective, is also pretty elegant. It means the system doesn't need to include an endless list of minor options on every power.

But all of that aside, it is intended primarily as an example of the types of things you can do with Extra Effect, not elegance per se.