Clarification on Push in an area

[Lindharin]

The Push power says:

If Push is bought with an area all people in the area are automatically affected.

Is that saying that Push with a Line, Arc or Ricochet would work like Burst, and the targets get a Defense / Athletics check to reduce the effect? Or do all the targets get affected by the full value with no roll to reduce it?

[BASHMAN]

No- all the targets are fully affected, unless they have resistance to knock-back, density increase, growing, etc.

[Lindharin]

Cool, thanks again!

[-HF-Aardvark892]

On that topic:

I'm building a street level character that is basically a tweaked version of Living Elemental (Water) on pg.109 of the UE rule book. The character as written has Push 3 (range 5 sq./Small Burst/x8 KnockBack) 3 pts.

Shouldn't that be 5 points? The power has the descriptors of Range and Area, so you don't have to pay extra points for the descriptors themselves, but you'd still have to pay 3 for the Push power itself, 1 for Range, Close (5 sq), and 1 for Small Burst. The level of the power gets added to the character's MIND (1) and then doubled for figuring knock back, therefore x8 pushback.

Am I right? Or have I once again completely missed how enhancements and limitations work.

[Lindharin]

You're math and understanding are totally correct, Aardvark.

The discrepancy is due to two things:

1. The notation for including range/area can be handled in two ways. Both of these are valid descriptions:

Push 1, +1 DM, Close Range, Small Burst (3 pts)
Push 3, +1 DM, Close Range, Small Burst (3 pts)

That causes confusion, but I don't have a good answer for how to handle it. Usually you can figure it out by looking at it in context. Unfortunately, in this case, the context itself has a separate issue:

2. In another recent thread, we discussed which stats get used as the basis for Special Attack and Push. The book as published is clear that ranged/area powers are based on Mind. However, the example archetypes (including the Water Elemental) don't always follow that rule (as you deduced!).

Bashman clarified that if the attack/push is based on the character using his body, it uses Brawn instead of Mind even if it has range or area. Similarly, an energy attack always uses Mind, even if it has no range. That clarification used to be in the original text, but may have been cut during editing before the book got published.

So, in the Water Elemental's case, he's pushing with his own watery body, using his Brawn for the base stat. So the 3 pts version in the archetype build is actually correct.

If he wasn't using his own body, but was actually using his mental control over other water to do this, then he'd need to use Mind as the basis for the push and your math would be exactly right.

[AslanC]

Do we have clarity on the Range is equal to the points in the power issue?

[-HF-Aardvark892]

You're math and understanding are totally correct, Aardvark.

The discrepancy is due to two things:

1. The notation for including range/area can be handled in two ways. Both of these are valid descriptions:

Push 1, +1 DM, Close Range, Small Burst (3 pts)
Push 3, +1 DM, Close Range, Small Burst (3 pts)

That causes confusion, but I don't have a good answer for how to handle it. Usually you can figure it out by looking at it in context. Unfortunately, in this case, the context itself has a separate issue:

2. In another recent thread, we discussed which stats get used as the basis for Special Attack and Push. The book as published is clear that ranged/area powers are based on Mind. However, the example archetypes (including the Water Elemental) don't always follow that rule (as you deduced!).

Bashman clarified that if the attack/push is based on the character using his body, it uses Brawn instead of Mind even if it has range or area. Similarly, an energy attack always uses Mind, even if it has no range. That clarification used to be in the original text, but may have been cut during editing before the book got published.

So, in the Water Elemental's case, he's pushing with his own watery body, using his Brawn for the base stat. So the 3 pts version in the archetype build is actually correct.

If he wasn't using his own body, but was actually using his mental control over other water to do this, then he'd need to use Mind as the basis for the push and your math would be exactly right.

I'm sorry, but the second option above isn't actually valid, is it? I mean, let's break it down:

Push 3 all by itself: 3 points. If you add one point into range, and one point into small burst, that makes 5 points. The Only way you could say that this costs 3 points, regardless of the make-up of the character's biology or lack thereof, would be to say that:

-For every point you buy in the level of the power, you get one point to spend on enhancements-

That would make it only cost three... but in that case, the creator cheated himself... because he used one point for range, one point for area and the last point was added to DM. His DM is already +3 due to the level of the power. His (Brawn or Mind, it doesn't matter for this point) is three points higher for figuring damage. He could have used that last point to add to the range (for example). Basically, the effectiveness of the power is not reduced even if you spend all three "points" allocated to it on enhancements. If it is, then the character's DM is still incorrect.

-I don't think that's how it works, though. I believe you still have to buy points in enhancements to get any benefit from them, even if the descriptor is free according to the power-

I know that the point you've made in your post above concerned the damage multiplier, and I can see what you mean. Your explanation makes sense. I know it's nit-picking about one point... but I'm one for the details (I'm probably OCD).

I'm sorry for so many questions about the details over the past week or two. I'm having a hard time with the Enhancements and Limitations. It feels like a lot got cut or left out before printing... or I'm just not getting it.

[Lindharin]

I haven't seen a clarification on that, AslanC.

And I may get this question wrong, so please correct me, AslanC.

Bashman, in case you didn't see it, we were talking about this in the New Centurions OOC thread.

In the Push power there is this line:

When figuring out the Range on Push, use the power’s level (it does no actual damage).

The question is whether that means that if you buy Push 3 or Push 5, you would get 3 or 5 squares of range for free.

Or does that line only refer to the formula for calculating Mid Range and longer ranges, where the range is based on a multiplier (Mid = x5, Long = x10, Extreme = x20) times either the power's DM or level. If this is the case, that line in Push is just trying to say the formula uses the level, not the DM (since it doesn't really do damage).

By the way, if it is talking about the formula, what counts as part of the "level"?

For example, if you have Push +1 DM, Small Burst, Long Range (for 5 pts), is the level 1 because only the DM bonus counts, or 2 for the DM plus Area, or the final total of 5 including the points spent on range?

[-HF-Aardvark892]

I haven't seen a clarification on that, AslanC.

And I may get this question wrong, so please correct me, AslanC.

Bashman, in case you didn't see it, we were talking about this in the New Centurions OOC thread.

In the Push power there is this line:

When figuring out the Range on Push, use the power’s level (it does no actual damage).

The question is whether that means that if you buy Push 3 or Push 5, you would get 3 or 5 squares of range for free.

Or does that line only refer to the formula for calculating Mid Range and longer ranges, where the range is based on a multiplier (Mid = x5, Long = x10, Extreme = x20) times either the power's DM or level. If this is the case, that line in Push is just trying to say the formula uses the level, not the DM (since it doesn't really do damage).

By the way, if it is talking about the formula, what counts as part of the "level"?

For example, if you have Push +1 DM, Small Burst, Long Range (for 5 pts), is the level 1 because only the DM bonus counts, or 2 for the DM plus Area, or the final total of 5 including the points spent on range?

And does that mean 3 or 5 SQUARES of range free, or a rating of Range:3 or 5... which is orders of magnitude higher?

[Lindharin]

I'm sorry for so many questions about the details over the past week or two. I'm having a hard time with the Enhancements and Limitations. It feels like a lot got cut or left out before printing... or I'm just not getting it.

Taking this first, 'cause it's important! No apologies!!! Questions are always good, and that's what this forum is here for.

-I don't think that's how it works, though. I believe you still have to buy points in enhancements to get any benefit from them, even if the descriptor is free according to the power-

Definitely! I didn't mean that at all. You're right about that.

What I meant is this:

People have gotten into two habits when it comes to writing down powers in a build. Some people like notation 1, and some people like notation 2, and some people use them both depending on what came to mind first.

Let's have an example: I want to buy a Special Attack with +2 DM, +1 attack, usable in a Medium Burst. We all agree that costs 5 points: 2 for DM, 1 for attack, 2 for Medium Burst.

My personal preference for writing that down is:

Special Attack 3: +1 attack, +2 DM, Medium Burst (5 pts)

However, when you are reading the forums (and a few of the archetypes in the Bash book), it is just as likely that you will see something like this:

Special Attack 5: +1 attack, +2 DM, Burst 2 (5 pts)

We all agree that the power costs 5 points, whichever way we write it down. It just comes down to personal preference whether points spent on area and range get included in the number next to the power name, or not.

I'd make the argument that it is better not to include area and range in the number next to the power name, for one reason. Let's say I wanted this power instead: +5 DM, Long Range, Small Burst (5+3+1= 9 pts). I would write it like this:

Special Attack 5: +5 DM, Long Range, Small Burst (9 pts)

The other option is:

Special Attack 9: +5 DM, Long Range, Small Burst (9 pts)

The problem with that second one is that you are limited to 5 ranks of Special Attack (ie, 5 ranks of attack and/or damage bonus), but you can have as many extra points in range and area as you want. The person is only buying +5 DM, so it is really is legal, but someone reading that description may get confused on a quick glance about how he can have "Special Attack 9".

So the first option seems "better" to me, while the second option seems more likely to cause confusion. But at the end of the day, it really is just a notation that people use to summarize the power. As long as it doesn't affect the price or the benefits, the only real problem is the confusion caused by two different styles of notation.

[BASHMAN]

Do we have clarity on the Range is equal to the points in the power issue?

Push doesn't do damage- therefore the range is based on the points in the power. So mid Range, PUSH 3 is 15 squares.

[AslanC]

Push doesn't do damage- therefore the range is based on the points in the power. So mid Range, PUSH 3 is 15 squares.

Do I have to buy the Range, as the power is worded in a way that suggest the Range is free, but Area and DM must be purchased;

When figuring out the Range on Push, use the power’s level (it does no actual damage).

[-HF-Aardvark892]

Doncha just love forums? Where else can you have an ongoing conversation with a manufacturer/creator/artist/whatever about his or her work like this?

Enough gushing. I'm willing to bet Bashman's gonna say, "No, you don't have to buy the range. However many points you put into Push, you automatically can have that level of Range for free."

Which is cool. If I'm right (which hardly ever happens), I'd wonder if reducing the range voluntarily would constitute a limitation, which in turn would reduce the cost but not the effective level of the power.

Oh, and Lindharin, I agree that a power should be listed with it's effective power level, with the total cost in these things: ( )
Push 3 - Range: Long, Area: Small Burst, (4 pts) (remember that the range costs zilch now).

Dang. I just realized that once again I have to go through my builds and fix the numbers. Oh well, it's not like it isn't something I wouldn't be doing today anyway, making characters, that is.

[Lindharin]

Doncha just love forums? Where else can you have an ongoing conversation with a manufacturer/creator/artist/whatever about his or her work like this?

It is awesome, isn't it? I can't thank Bashman enough for the time he spends answering questions here.

Regarding whether the range is free on Push or not,
I'm still interpreting Bashman's answer differently than the rest of you, but you rephrased it in a much clearer way.

Bashman, do you get free range when you buy ranks of Push, or do you pay for range just like you would in Special Attack?

[BASHMAN]

No you don't get free range. The sentence Aslan quoted :

When figuring out the Range on Push, use the power’s level (it does no actual damage).

Means that you use the powers level (not damage) as the determining factor for figuring how many squares of range it gets if you put 2 or more points into range. Remember, Mid-Extreme range is based on either the power's DM or its Level. That sentence was meant to clairify that in this instance, you use the power's level, not damage. It does not mean the range is free.

Push is used not just to reflect blasting people with wind- but also "Inner Strength" judo throws/palm slams, etc.