New to Bash... build questions

[Harrigan]

Hi folks. Brand new BASHer here, just found the game and then obviously this forum. Looooong time roleplayer, I do pretty much only PBP type gaming these days. Lots of history with the classic supers systems, MSH, Hero, GURPS (I know, I know), SAS and most recently Mutants and Masterminds. While I actually like large portions of most of those games, the simplicity of BASH! is appealing.

So... to make sure I understand the system, mind if I post a couple of builds here to see if I'm even in the right ballpark?

I like to challenge new systems (I'm also messing with ICONS) with tough builds at the start to see how they handle non-simple angles... like, for example, a Supes-type heroine who has to recharge every 24 hours at her base in orbit. And who gets weaker and weaker as she uses her powers, but not *quickly*, just over time. So if she didn't expend major energy, her powers might last a few days or a week instead of 24hrs.

I can see two ways of modeling this... one simple, one complex, complex with Hero / M&M splitting of powers to apply limitations separately.

Thoughts?

(Forgive the formatting... will be a while before I grok the best way to put these down...)

----------------

Simple:

THUNDERCHILD (31Pts)
Might 5, Soak 8
Agility 3, Defense 3
Mind 2, Mental Defense 2
Hits 100

Mental Malfunction
Burned Out

Powers
Flight 5
Invulnerability – Armor 3
Immunity 4 (Vacuum, Cold, Radiation, Suffocation) (limited: Tiring)

Skills
Athletics 3 (Soccer, Throwing, Running) [x5]
Investigation (Gut) [x2]
Social Science (Law) (x2)

Advantages
Appeal
Celebrity
Leadership
Police Powers
Security Clearance

Disadvantages
Arch-Enemy
Public ID
Rogue’s Gallery
Secret: Power Source
Involuntary Change (Power Drain) << here's the perhaps too simplified recharging bit

And then, complex, and quite possibly illegal (don't stone me!):

THUNDERCHILD (32Pts)
Might 2, Soak 2 (5/8 with Boost)
Agility 2, Defense 2 (3/3 with Boost)
Mind 2, Mental Defense 2
Hits 100

Mental Malfunction
Burned Out

Powers
Boost Might 3 (Charges)
Armor 3 (Same Source – Boost Might 3)

Boost Might 2 (Charges, Situational – only when Boost Might 3 is Exhausted)
Armor 2 (Same Source – Boost Might 2)

Boost Might 1 (Finite, Situational – only when Boost Might 3 & 2 are exhausted)
Armor 1 (Same Source – Boost Might 1)

Flight 5 (Situational – Only when Boost Might 3 is active)
Flight 4 (Situational – Only when Boost Might 2 is Active)
Flight 3 (Situational – Only when Boost Might 1 is Active)
Boost Agility 1 (Situational – only when Boost Might is active)
Immunity 4 (Vacuum, Cold, Radiation, Suffocation) (limited: Tiring) (Situational – Only when Boost Might is Active)

This one tries to slowly ramp her powers down, and when they're gone, they snuff out all other associated powers like flight, boost agility and immunity.

Skills
Athletics 3 (Soccer, Throwing, Running) [x5]
Investigation (Gut) [x2]
Social Science (Law) (x2)

Advantages
Appeal
Celebrity
Leadership
Police Powers
Security Clearance

Disadvantages
Arch-Enemy
Public ID
Rogue’s Gallery
Secret: Power Source
Secret: Heritage

Hero Points 3
Hero Dice 1
Setback Points 0

Thanks in advance for any time spent looking at this stuff.

-Harrigan

[BeardedDork]

The only thing that jumps out at me, well two things I guess, in both builds is that you have too many physical skills they are based off of your Agility, not your Brawn(and is not affected by Boost unless that's what the Boost does). so you should have 3 physical skill slots not five, unless you purchased the skillful power which I don't see.

Also it looks like the second build is 33 points, but I may have miscounted.

[Harrigan]

The skills thing is probably just a function of how I notated it -- at least in the first build, there are just three physical skills taken -- all in Athletics. In the second build, the boost shouldn't apply so I should lower that Athletics to 2.

I'll go over the points again -- one of the things hanging me up there is how to count 1pt powers that have limitations.

Another thing I don't know... in this situation:

Boost Might 3 (Charges)
Armor 3 (Same Source – Boost Might 3)

Does the Same Source mean that when Armor is used a Charge is used, or merely that when the Charges are used up (by Boost Might) that *then* the Armor is depleted?

I'm looking for a mechanic like the former, where they share the power source...

Thanks for the reply!

[BeardedDork]

Then your athletics could have 3 specialties at a x3 or 1 specialty at x5.

[Harrigan]

Ah, got it. Just reread the skills section, and I see now that the "additional" slots can go to the base multiplier -or- a specialty, not both.

Any thoughts on the "Same Source" question?

[BeardedDork]

I had always read it that only the power with the charges actually consumed charges, and the same source power would run out when the other did, but something I read recently has led me to possibly believe other wise, so I don't know.

If it where my game, until I hear differently, and probably still afterward I would say that only the power with charges consumed charges.

[BASHMAN]

Both consume charges. Here's why:

A clever min/maxer could take several powers. All have the "Same Source" limitation except one. It is a one-point power called "Never Use This Power Ever". By doing this, he got 1 point off from ALL of his other powers with no limitation affecting him at all. Since he never uses the "Never Use This Power Ever" power, he wouldn't use up any charges for any of the other ones.

That is why each power uses up charges. It makes Same Source a serious consequence. Similiarly, with Burnout or Finite, each time you use any of the powers, you have to make a check.

HOWEVER- if you have a 1pt power with "Burnout" and all the rest with Same Source, it IS okay to make your d6 roll where the powers only burn out when you roll a 1. That is a 1-in-6 chance each time you use any of the powers that they all stop working. That is still a pretty serious limitation.

[BeardedDork]

I don't see how that solves anything. Rather than taking Same Source I take the Limitation: Situational can only use when "Never Use This Power" is available.

This is a situation where the Narrator needs to step in and tell their player to stop being an *. The mechanical limits don't really cover it either way.

[BASHMAN]

I definately agree that the Narrator needs to step in at a certain point, however I would still have all the powers use charges. Otherwise, instead of "same source" give them each their own bank of charges OR take the Energy Limitation for them if you want to represent them all drawing from a common pool.

[Heroglyph]

Are you the same Harrigan of "Harrigan's Astounding PBeM Comic-book Campaign"?

If so, nice work !

[Harrigan]

In terms of balance, it's also a little odd that Same Source is worth the same as if you limited each power separately, since Same Source is pretty clearly more limiting. Who wouldn't rather than 10 charges for each power rather than 10 split between the two? Ah, except when it's all about the concept, and I think the Narrator / GM has a role to play here, just as you guys suggest. Also, the vibe I'm getting from Bash isn't to nickle and dime and min-max (thank heavens), so I just won't sweat Same Source being a "bigger" limitation that's not worth any more than a "normal" one.

And yep, Heroglyph, one and the same Harrigan. Thanks for the kind words. Boy. HAPCC -- that's a blast from the past. Hard to believe I've been running supers games on the net for almost 20 years now. Where did you run across that old fossil? Incidentally, I still use that campaign world. First I ran it in Hero, round two, in the mid-late 2000s, was using M&M. Could be round 3 will be Bash or ICONS...

[Heroglyph]

I think I a came across it when I was looking at Champions related material on the net years ago. We may have even had some correspondence back then. Anyway, I always liked the campaign background and how it tied into the arms race. Fun read.

My campaign has evolved game systems as well: Champions, then M&M, now BASH

I think you will like BASH. It is very similar to Champions and M&M (at least as far as how powers are built) , but MUCH simpler and faster.

And if you are like me, you just want to play the game, and tell a good story without having to stop and refer to a rulebook every minute or so during play.

[Heroglyph]

One thing to remember about limitations in BASH, is that even if you have multiple limitations on a power, the cost is only reduced by one point (if I am remembering correctly). I wasn't aware of that when I first started.

But multiple enhancements do add individually to the point cost of a power.

[Harrigan]

Yeah, might be sacrilegious to say here, but I actually think that M&M gets a whole heck of a lot of things right, especially in terms of the stun rules, hero points, pushing, fatigue, etc. (The d20 is atrocious, but switching that to 2d10 kept me going on the system for years...)

But... yeah, in the interest of speed and straight-up storytelling, I find myself shopping the market for new supers games.

Think I might run an online Bash ION Guard game to really get the feel for the system. Can't tell yet if I'll like the dice mechanic or not, if street-level supers are well modeled, and if I can do without full-on stun rules. Running a game will let me know.

[BASHMAN]

In terms of balance, it's also a little odd that Same Source is worth the same as if you limited each power separately, since Same Source is pretty clearly more limiting. Who wouldn't rather than 10 charges for each power rather than 10 split between the two? Ah, except when it's all about the concept, and I think the Narrator / GM has a role to play here, just as you guys suggest. Also, the vibe I'm getting from Bash isn't to nickle and dime and min-max (thank heavens), so I just won't sweat Same Source being a "bigger" limitation that's not worth any more than a "normal" one.

You got it. There are some Limitations that are clearly worse than others, and some enhancements that are clearly better. They are still all worth 1 point. What matters if it fits the character concept. If I differentiated the points of limitations and enhancements, I'd have to make powers cost a lot more, which would mean making stats cost more, and before you know it, the "typical" character is 100 points. That was the opposite of my design goal. I wanted 25 points to be more the norm.

The point of designing a character isn't to make the most efficient character- it is to make the character you envision.