Legal Issues? from Fabrica to name referencing

[kevperrine]

I've asked various forums in various ways... and I still never get a solid answer. Nothing that leads me to any specific point that says "you cannot do *this*".

Does anyone have any suggestions, know any lawyers, have better search-fu than me, etc... To find answers.

For example...
#1. We see AslanC's new product ( http://bashtalk.org/modules.php?name=Fo ... opic&t=711 ) uses the Fabrica image generator for illustration. And AslanC notes he couldn't find any legal deterents and that other products (cite?) use Hero Machine for imagery.

#2. In the new ICONS "Field Guide to Superheroes" we see "Examples" clearly listed under each archetype noting examples of famous Marvel/DC and other publication characters.


I would love love, kill to know for certain, love to have a locked in stone definition of how/why we (as publishers, 3rd party or otherwise) can or cannot use names of published characters (like Spiderman/Superman), names of movies or comic book stories/collections, or imagery of the icons or cover art from those references and NOT be subject to legal issues. And also do so in the best fair use, morally.

Secondly... the use of images created from public/private image generators - to be published in our works.


Does anyone have any solid ideas on this (speculation is fine, but it really needs backed-up)...
Another thought. Would anyone be interested in actually calling/contacting lawyers to learn these questions? I'm not sure if this would or could be a "free consultation" type thing or if there'd be a cost for the advice. And if so, what would that cost be? And if low enough, would anyone be interested in sharing that cost to find out 100% legal precedent with reference from the lawyer (in case someone asks).



My reason for asking.
I have several ideas that WANT to use reference to published characters or works, not to mention the ability to use the various image generators for quick/cheap imagery fillers. My ideas are NOT using the original references to "sell" my product ideas, rather to give reference to make it "click". ICON's Field Guides are the perfect example, showing that *this* archetype is similar to:

DESCENDANT
Examples: Wally West - the Flash, Kyle Rayner - the Green Lantern, Rick Tyler - Hourman, Dan Drieberg - Nite Owl, The Phantom, Jack Knight - Starman.

Heck. I don't even know what type of LAW this would be categorized under. Anyone?

Thoughts?
-kev-

[BeardedDork]

It's copyright law, both Marvel and DCstate pretty explicitly what you can and cannot do with their intellectual property

[kevperrine]

It's copyright law, both Marvel and DCstate pretty explicitly what you can and cannot do with their intellectual property

Either... Your understanding and assessment of what that means is incorrect. Or...


Someone needs to tell ICON's "Field Guide to Superheroes ! & 2" that.

or

(in the mean spirit)
Someone needs to tell Marvel, DC, Image, Darkhorse, and others about ICON's supplement.


Because it's in print.
-kev-

[urbwar]

Those field supplements are not the first rpg books to reference comic supers. I know Silver Age Sentinels did, and iirc, the Golden Age supplement for M&M 2nd did mention some of the golden age characters. That doesn't mean that they could, but it shows that vigilance isn't the first company to do so.

As for the Fabrica stuff; I know on the Hero Forums, a poster who did a supplement for the game stated he couldn't use Fabrica art. However, it may have been the newer versions he was referring to. I know there are some 3rd party M&M books that use Fabrica art (they're called Mirror Universe or something to that effect), so it appears that at least that version has been used to make art for rpg books before. Again, doesn't mean it can be used, just that is has, and no one did anything about it.

[MrJupiter]

If I'm not mistaken, the Behemoth archtype (pg 114 of BASH:UE) looks to be a fabrica x rendering, but I could be wrong.

[BASHMAN]

If I'm not mistaken, the Behemoth archtype (pg 114 of BASH:UE) looks to be a fabrica x rendering, but I could be wrong.

Not quite, but close.

Danillo used Fabrica to make some rough drafts of some of the characters. He did color it, do shading on it, etc, but the outline was from Fabrica.

By accident, when he turned in artwork to me, he submitted this piece (the rough draft) instead of his final piece. I noticed it after the book had already been out for a while.

Danillo contacted the Fabrica artists and obtained permission to use the image (since it was already printed) and they granted it. They however did not want to be credited. Had they said no, I would have pulled the line to fix it.

In the new printing, that image will be replaced with the originally intended art.

[BASHMAN]

Kevin. There is a difference between Copyrights and Trademarks. Copyright is a story, while Trademark can just be a name or likeness.

Copyright Law has something called "Fair Use". Which means I can legally mention the fact that Superman exists. DC Comics cannot sue me for saying Batman is an example of costumed crime-fighter.

What they could sue me for is:
I try to make "Batman the RPG" and sell it to people (or even give it away).

If you give credit where credit is due (cite the source) you are allowed to mention things. WHat you cannot do is make anything that uses the Batman name as the name of a character (even in part, like "tin can batman" unless it is a clear parody), is set in the Batman universe, etc. However I would be careful with doing any parodies.

PS I am not a lawyer, so don't consider anything I say to be legal advice.

[MrJupiter]

Thanks for the info on the Behemoth picture. I thought some aspects of it were unique. I look forward to seeing it in the new BASH printing.

Also, thanks for the Copyright/Trademark refresher (love the CYA disclaimer at the end of the post).

[kevperrine]

In the new printing, that image will be replaced with the originally intended art.

Any chance for a preview of that image? hehe
-kev-

[kevperrine]

If you give credit where credit is due (cite the source) you are allowed to mention things.

I'm considering calling some copywrite lawyers, ask if they give quick advice for this as a walk-in. Or if I'd need to schedule an appointment (pay) what the fee would be.

I don't want to break any legal or ethical rules at all. But since we are building ideas off of the example of these heroes and their comics I am just so curious as to how far you can go and be fair.

Some examples I am wondering:


- Can I mention Spiderman, Batman, etc... as examples?

- Could I make a "Patriotic Shield Hero" call him "Shield Bearer" and in the official product note that the idea is homage to Captain America?

- Could I print a short adventure featuring the "Bash Brothers" and say that they're homages of Marvel's Wrecking Crew?

- Could I publish the ability comparison chart that I made, which references Marvel and DC characters as examples of what "xx" score is?

- On that comparison chart, can I show the head/image of those same heroes (as I did) and print it?

- Can I write an adventure based on "Amazing Spiderman issue #24" and note that it's based off of that issue?

- For that same adventure could I show the cover of "Amazing Spiderman issue #24" in the corner 1-2" at the bottom of my custom issue cover? Or on the back? Or in the credits section?


Again.
I don't want to use the characters. And the purpose isn't to sell the product. But in all of the cases above it's to note "THIS is the example" of what this product is shooting for.


These are the types of questions I plan to ask if/when I contact a copywrite lawyer.
Do any of you have any questions I might add to the discussion regarding these matters? (might as well get them all for the time/price)


-kev-