100 hits, too many?

[VanMaddle]

hello everybody. This friday i am going to play my first BASH adventure. Im exited.

but i keep thinking about the hit points. 100 hits seem a lot for a character. You have to be really beaten to lost 100 hits. Or maybe i am wrong and the characters go down pretty easily.

people with experience, what do you think?

[AngryGhost]

hello everybody. This friday i am going to play my first BASH adventure. Im exited.

but i keep thinking about the hit points. 100 hits seem a lot for a character. You have to be really beaten to lost 100 hits. Or maybe i am wrong and the characters go down pretty easily.

people with experience, what do you think?

I think 100 points is about right. Remember, when you're against super villains they're going to be able to pack quite a punch (sometimes with Brawn 3+ quite literally).

Minions however can have a lot less than 100 points and just like the game Feng Shui, which is an action movie rpg they are meant to be disposed of cinematically, in bulk and quickly.

However, minions can be dangerous en-masse and can pose a threat even to a Hero with 100 hit points (esp. if he has no armour).

Of course a minion is 50 points or less (if I remember correctly). If you wanted to have more risk for your Heroes then you could easily reduce their hit points for your game somewhere between 51 and 100, probably an increment of 10 to make it easier - so 60, 70 etc.

I think 100 is about right, but with large groups I could see you wanting to have less hit points for your heroes .

[BeardedDork]

In the Game where I was introduced to BASH run by Kinetic our patriotic hero took down the the big baddy in one shot doing I think it was 140 hits, exactly the amount required considering his soak. In one of my most recent games one of my players, same guy actually, took 170 hits, big numbers do come up.

Most of the time my adventures include only one actual villain and some number of Minions, so my players only have to overcome the 100 hits once.

[VanMaddle]

Im more worried about stuff like this: It is very dificult for Thor, the mighty with his uru hammer and damage 8 to knockdown the Wasp in a single punch. He needs 14 to do it (8x14 vs soak 1 and a 7 in the dice, very common number). 14!!! Thor vs the Wasp!!!!

[AngryGhost]

Im more worried about stuff like this: It is very dificult for Thor, the mighty with his uru hammer and damage 8 to knockdown the Wasp in a single punch. He needs 14 to do it (8x14 vs soak 1 and a 7 in the dice, very common number). 14!!! Thor vs the Wasp!!!!

Well I'd first ask why Thor has gone mad and is starting to beat down on the female members of his team, but...

Firstly it depends what the stats for each character were too - as there's no definitive stats for either character you are free to use what you will.

Also, don't forget about Knock Back, if your Thor character smashes puny Wasp, even without counting exploding dice or hero points/dice etc, the sheer strength of his "hammer time" is going to send her flying (not like normal you understand). The impact in which she hit something like the ground/wall is going to do additional damage.

I'm sure some one can help you with making a Special Attack to add more damage or help you with making a large Mallet for Thor with the relevant properties, perhaps using enhancement: extra effect that would also add more damage. Unfortunately I'm not that knowledgeable about the examples given (any other member of the team... almost).

[Lindharin]

Two points:

First, I think you should also ask yourself if any supers character really should be able to consistently one-shot another character, either in comics or (especially) in a game. It may not be realistic, but "normal" heroes with no special invulnerability fight against demi-gods all the time in comics, and they don't just fall over. It seems both counter to the genre (where the Wasp has not only fought the Hulk and survived on many occasions, but even knocked him out at least once), and difficult to build a game on the assumption that superhero characters can and should be easily taken out in 1 page of a fight. Personally, that wouldn't be a game I'd really want to play, but it is fine if you do, and you could easily reduce the default hits to suit your tastes.

On the other hand, if the issue isn't really that you want characters to be knocked out in one blow, but just you have trouble suspending disbelief when it comes to Wasp withstanding a blow from Thor, then consider that a "hit" (in game mechanics) does not necessarily mean a solid blow. Maybe when Thor's player rolls a hit on the Wasp and does, say, 50 damage, that gets described as Mjolnir sweeps past the insect-sized Wasp with devastating power, and the rush of wind from its passage does 50 damage and hurls the minuscule heroine back 40' (or whatever the knockback would be). If you feel that the Wasp cannot be hit by Mjolnir without being defeated, and yet she didn't get knocked out, then clearly Mjolnir didn't actually hit her... Something else must have happened to inflict whatever damage was done, but it wasn't a direct hit. The whole attack/damage system is just a game mechanic, after all, and how you interpret and describe it is up to you and your gaming group.

Hope that helps!

[kevperrine]

Two points:

[cut great thoughts]

Hope that helps!

I 100% agree with Lindharin here!! I'd remind that in original games that support our supers RPG genre - such as D&D, the "Hits" don't represent ANYTHING except the overall well being of the characters.

Each point is not a cut/hit. Just as each "Panel" in initiative order is not ONE single "swing". That hit or that swing could be described hundreds of ways for each individual character for each different fight.
The hits could be cuts, bruises, broken ribs, physical fatigue, or even mental fatigue. ANYTHING that represents the characters ability to "go on".

I actually had never thought about the 100 Hit (or single total for ALL characters) idea until I read BASH!. But considering it... I think it's brilliant for a cinematic/supers style game.

Wasp has the same "Hits" as the Hulk! Darkseid has the same as Batgirl! The DIFFERENCE lies in the character's various ways of getting out of reducing what I would consider the 100 Hits to be as an overall "WILL TO CONTINUE". From Dodge potentials, to Armor, to Soak, to Healing.... those are the things that differentiate each character by power levels and powers.



Furthermore.

A good example of that is the Minion Rules as well as the Villain's Monologue rules. Both (in opposite way) give less/more Hits to a character based on their "fortitude" both physical and mental.

A minion (or civilian) just isn't cut out to have the will or physical ability of a hero/villain, hence - less Hits.
A villain can Monologue to bolster their power or will behind actions, hence - more Hits as they talk and energize themselves.

Lastly.
I'm been toying with ideas on levels of Hits. I've considered (and tested) the option for Advantage/Disadvantage to give/reduce increments of Hits to simulate that "WILL TO CONTINUE"

I've also considered removing Hits from opponents due to them having been previously punished in some way before coming into conflict with the Heroes.

For example:
Doctor Doom might have just spent the last 12 days awake both summoning magics to infuse into the new armor-tech he was creating. So when the Fantastic Four encounter him, Doom's "Hits" may only be 70... due to the lack of rest and drains of mental resources. To which he might quickly try and use Monologuing to get up to a "normal" level!

Make sense?
Am I wrong in thinking?

-kev-

[Benji]

Im more worried about stuff like this: It is very dificult for Thor, the mighty with his uru hammer and damage 8 to knockdown the Wasp in a single punch. He needs 14 to do it (8x14 vs soak 1 and a 7 in the dice, very common number). 14!!! Thor vs the Wasp!!!!

First of all, I'm just going to say that I think the Bash system is awesome.

That said, I agree with your concerns, and I'm afraid I'm not really comfortable with the narrative hand waving that's been suggested in this thread so far, although they are quite clever.

The first thing is that comics are often quite silly, and very contrived, and so the the idea of Thor, or say a blast from Ultron, hitting the Wasp full-on just doesn't happen.

Not that it wouldn't happen, it's just that in these universes it's been decided that characters only get punished as much as their bodies will reasonably allow (unless a comic book company needs some quick sales, of course).

So really, Bash isn't wrong here. But then again, I prefer a grittier playing style, where the Wasp just needs to take her chances like the rest of us.

To that end, you could institute an exception into the rules that states that any human level character getting a face-full of Mjolnir, or any supernaturally powerful hit, is just dead. Or at least, very messed up.

In the case of the Wasp vs Thor however, I think there is a case to be made for cutting her some slack. Essentially, the chance of her getting hit in the first place is nearly zero. Just get some rocks, go in the back yard, and try to get a fly dead on, and you'll see what I mean.

You could argue that she, being tiny and fast, could use her superhuman agility to add to (or as) her Soak to avoid being splattered by the (relatively) slow moving flying piece of concrete. Or, that Thor needs to exceed her Agility roll by an indeterminate amount to hit on the first place. Varying degrees of success could indicate the "close miss" as in the ideas above.

It's an exception, but all good games have them. This suits me better than some conceptual idea of "survivability", but I do agree the latter is more in keeping with the spirit of mainstream comics.

This is one of the things that I like so much about Bash, the ability to easily make the game play your way, without breaking it.

[AngryGhost]

I think the best way to do this is to have someone with reasonable knowledge of both Wasp and Thor and pit them against each other in the brawling part of these forums with the bias on Thor rolling well (not necessarily by using a lot of HD or exploding dice though.

Things to remember would be that Thor is going to pretty much Max out on strength, and once you add in his hammer he's going to be doing some super damage.

Whilst Wasp is going to be massively agile and very hard to hit when small she is also going to suffer from the shrinking power disadvantage which means that her soak will most likely be non existent.

I would also say as an example in this fight that I have been driving along the motorway/highway at 70mph (car=thors hammer for this example) and had flies (read Wasp) both splat against the windscreen AND have seen them bounce off seemingly unphased by the experience.

just sayin'.

[BASHMAN]

My Thunder God build that I've used in campaigns can easily do x10 Damage with a hand-to-hand attack (his hammer was Special Attack 5 [Variable], and a Brawn of 5. If you make it ranged, that is still x9 damage at Close range.

If he rolls a 12 or better (which isn't out of the realm of possibility with exploding dice), that is 108 damage.

If she has a soak of x1 (which would be my assumption) that is an average of 7. Even on an 8, she'd be down for the count. Note that this is excluding knock-back- which a shrunk character takes more of (but less damage from falling admittedly).

So actually a roll of 9+ would probably take her out on the damage roll if she ends up taking sufficient knock-back. 81 base damage - 7 soak = 74 Damage. Assuming she has Shrinking 3 turned on (6 inches tall) that is x6 Knock-Back and she Soaks x4 (ave 28 of it). The knockback would be 81 feet x6 = 486 feet, which is easily in the "Terminal Velocity" realm of x10 damage. Assuming just an AVERAGE roll on that knock-back, she is taking 70-28= 42 damage; again taking her down.

With a x1 soak, she relies on not being hit- but our assumption here is that she IS HIT.

[BASHMAN]

Now trying average rolls for damage, soak and knock-back.

9x7 = 63 base damage = 53' [BTW just realized I forgot to subtract 10' of KB from the above listed hit... but it would still end up being Terminal Velocity on impact] knockback x6 = 315 feet, again x10 KB damage.

Her initial soak is x1; which is actually at a -3 dice penalty for size (unless she doesn't lose her Strength from shrinking...). So she soaks 4, or 7 if she keeps her strength. Let's go with 7.

63-7= 56 damage. Then she takes 70 from KB and soaks 28 = 42 getting through = 98 damage after soak... on DEAD AVERAGE rolls, with no Hero Points being spent at all. I guess the difference between her Shrinking allowing her to use her Full Strength or not really matters here, because that is the difference between being Conscious or not (it is a difference of 3 soak).

[kevperrine]

That said, I agree with your concerns, and I'm afraid I'm not really comfortable with the narrative hand waving that's been suggested in this thread so far, although they are quite clever.

The first thing is that comics are often quite silly, and very contrived, and so the the idea of Thor, or say a blast from Ultron, hitting the Wasp full-on just doesn't happen.

Not that it wouldn't happen, it's just that in these universes it's been decided that characters only get punished as much as their bodies will reasonably allow (unless a comic book company needs some quick sales, of course).

So really, Bash isn't wrong here. But then again, I prefer a grittier playing style, where the Wasp just needs to take her chances like the rest of us.

The thing you seem to be missing is the CORE concepts of BASH! is specifically suited for the more mainstream comic book heroes.

If you would like to CHANGE that to a more lethal style, I'm sure you could. But why? Comics and superheroes are decidedly NOT about the gritty bloodsmeared rule-system effect you can get from playing/using a system like Call of Cthulhu's Basic Role-playing System or GURPS lower end values.

Why play BASH! if you don't like the way comic books handle their characters? Or rather, why play the core concept of BASH! rules if you don't like that aspect? BASH! is a great system, but at base it IS to simulate what comics do. Only a few comic books will take things into a "GURPS" style deadliness... It's a conceit of the genre. To enjoy. Celebrate. Not have contempt or frustration for.

It's ridiculous that Batman has survived all these years. The things he can do are impossible as the mortal he is supposed to BE.
And that aspect of "story" written to allow him to not only survive but thrive IS accounted for in the style of rule design.

The ideas promoted in this thread that "allow" Wasp to be hit and survive Thor's hammer swing are NOT creative storytelling as much as a literal explanation.
If one shot (due to the die rolls) doesn't kill Jan in one shot, then CLEARLY something of her ability saved her. It's not contrived. It's fact (in the story of the comic book or RPG session). Even in Marvel's comic book world, there is death... and a swing from Mjolnir would KILL most people (ie. those minions/civilians that are not full heroes/villains with 100 Hits), however when facing a full hero/villain they ARE subject to the "story" of the genre, which allows them more flexibility in not "ending" the story in a crappy non-comic book style with immediate death.

At some point a player in the game. Has to either choose to BELIEVE in the genre tropes and enjoy them, or play another game system (or modify heavily).

Just as when we play other RPGs or read/listen/watch other fiction genres we accept THEIR tropes.


Not allowing a great character like Wasp to give explanation to why she can "take a hit" from Thor, takes away from the overall genre.
To the point. IF Thor's hammer swing SHOULD have killed her. The random die rolls that simulate the fate (modified by skill/power) ARE what we use to tell our RPG stories. So if the die rolls mean Jan was hit REALLY well by Thor's attack roll, but the damage/soak roll only does 30 Hit's.... then it's not just a creative excuse it's factual definition - to which we describe HOW that happened...

Such as "low" damage being delivered by the mere WIND sweeping by the Wasp (and not the hammer head) hitting her is a brilliant description that immediately makes sense in context of the random (poor) die rolls in a combat.



I get somewhat annoyed by people that play comic book supers games and won't allow themselves (or me/the group) to enjoy those tropes. "Needing" to have a "rational" explanation suggesting my descriptions aren't good enough for their grittier style.

Read a comic book, then come join my game.

that's my opinion....
-kev-


PS.... That is NOT directed at you specifically Benji. Just my general pet peeve about supers gamers that are not comic fans. Or are only fans of specific tropes.

[Nestor]

Heh. An eloquent and passionate response, kev.

The rub is that the comic book "genre" by itself encompasses a number of sometimes apparently contradictory tropes, from the four-color hi-jinks of the Brave and The Bold to the gritty street-level escapades of, say, Mike Grell's Green Arrow (when he eschewed the trick arrows for lethal broadheads). And that's just in the DC Universe.

Not to sound contrary, but a personal peeve of mine are folks who have a specific point-of-view about how a game or setting "has to be played" and feel any deviation from it is detrimental.

I do agree that BASH does lend itself to what could be called Golden-Age superhero roleplaying, and using it to run a low power level game where something like a gun or a knife is still dangerous can be difficult. It's something I've come to notice but can accept.

[kevperrine]

The rub is that the comic book "genre" by itself encompasses a number of sometimes apparently contradictory tropes, from the four-color hi-jinks of the Brave and The Bold to the gritty street-level escapades of, say, Mike Grell's Green Arrow (when he eschewed the trick arrows for lethal broadheads). And that's just in the DC Universe.

Too true.
However, that's where I'd suggest that your dissection of my response isn't really an issue.

All of those (and all the others) genres within the Comic Book genre have similar TROPES. More than most other media, they ALL share the trope that the character's that the story is about (or involving) ALL to varying degrees have "story immunity" of sorts panel to panel.

If the story calls for "The Brave & the Bold Batman" to be able to survive an onslaught by Gorilla Grodd, which a normal dude should NOT be able to do (mentally or physically), then he can.

In Green Arrow's "Longbow Hunters" series - people SHOULD die with nearly every shot the marksman of Ollie's ability fires. They don't.

The story of comics is what we are simulating with the BASH! rules, not what the individual character's power levels and killing powers "should" be in the real world.


The only type of story in superhero comics that I would note, might not be as broadly open to allowing the characters to survive a story element would be something like "Watchmen" - which is set in a very realistic setting. Even comics such as The Authority, The Ultimates, and others of that ilk aren't as "honest" in it's action/violence. Even still, Rorschach pulls off some pretty big action sequences (that he could have died from) that support HIS "100 pt. Hits" total compared to his pedestrian antagonists.

And at first glance you might think those "gritty" stories such as the high-powered-gritty Ultimates/Authority or street-level Daredevil style comics, you might consider they would have the "immediate death" option if hit by Mjolnir... and they *might* in-story, IF that ever became a factor. But it doesn't, but rarely.

Midnighter is another perfect example of the Wasp issue. He's got powers, but they're primarily to avoid and attack (seeing all the possibilities of your action), and he STILL gets "hit" and hurt alot - racking up bulging blue-black bruises all the time. But not being DEAD, even through the godlike powers he deals with as a member of the Godlike villains that the Authority faces.

Not to sound contrary, but a personal peeve of mine are folks who have a specific point-of-view about how a game or setting "has to be played" and feel any deviation from it is detrimental.

Luckily, I don't do that when I play.

I, personally, discuss the style/tropes of the game the group is going to play. For supers RPGs that needs detailed well - to all be on the same page if it's to succeed well.

That said.
I still feel that its rare that a comic book story that we might use as a base to create our own stories to simulate in any RPG system WOULD be lethal in that way.

If you disagree, I'd like to know examples of comics that you think would not include that trope of comics in which I feel are universal tropes?

Now...
That's not to say that you can't choose not to do that. Or to adapt away from the basic tropes of comics in the way BASH! best simulates. It's your game.
But I don't know if you need to.

At most, playing a more street level game - I might suggest lowering every character's "Hits" across the board in some denomination. But still a poor die roll could mean Thor's hammer (or a gun shot) hit doesn't do enough damage to kill immediately - hence you'd still need/want a good explanation for the description of the outcome.

Or...
If you wanna go reality. Wasn't it the rapper 50cent that got shot 8-12 times but survived, when some other accidental shot that doesn't even hit an immediate kill spot can kill a man at other times.

What happened THERE in terms of game rules or description?

My thought = Bad die rolls. Which = good description time.

-kev-

[Nestor]

Good points. I apologize for the knee-* reaction to the comment. I've unfortunately had too many encounters with gamers convinced of the "One True Way" of roleplaying.

In a sense, any RPG that focuses on the roleplaying part will try to provide some level of "plot immunity" to the PCs, whether by granting them elevated stats or skewing the rules to give them an advantage. Unless the players are in a MMO/FPS mindset, where getting their character scragged means they just pull out another one from the bag, it's not likely they'll enjoy meaningless deaths.

The irony is that I agree with your viewpoint. I've been criticized by fellow gamers for my "I don't kill PCs" approach. When I run, I see the adventure as a story, with a general idea as to where it will end. The fun comes from seeing how the characters will get there.

For that reason, I happily confess that I will fudge rolls and tilt events to keep the adventure going. Having your hero taken out of the story for no other reason than a bad die roll is... well, not fun.

At the same time, I recognize that as a personal and not universal preference. There are players who believe you should follow the dice roll results, no matter what; part of their enjoyment is having the uncertainty of success and actually running the risk of failure.

That's fine, as far as I'm concerned. To paraphrase a quote from a favorite movie, we all come to the table for different reasons, but we're all after the same thing. To have fun, to be entertained.

Just don't tell me my way of getting there is wrong. Well, unless it involves koalas and a bottle of Wesson oil.