Zenith Comics Presents: Supervillains! Vol. 1 - RELEASE DATE

[kevperrine]

Aside from the publishing question... what did you think of the product. Like? Not like? Cool art? Neat ideas?

I mentioned, I will give a FULL review in the next few days on sites of note for you guys (and promotion of your products and BASH! in general).

But if you'd like a uber-quicky review:

PROS:
- I was happily surprised by the art, some are better than others. I wasn't originally a fan of that art style. It comes across well for about 70% of the characters. Again, details in the full review. (I am a *visual* image guy, so that will be focused on)
- I like the format: with a full character sheet separate, as noted... I like printing CS and Background double-sided.
- the "old school" style of paper figs in the back were a good idea.
- the stats (though I've not looked in detail) look solidly thought out, I'll be interested to read them thoroughly and consider the build combinations more.

CONS:
- While the character art is pretty cool, the "action shots" of those same characters are not so great. In comparison I'd say they're 30% okay, the opposite of the character art.
- I am not a fan of the page layout. I see the potential, just not feeling the style of the layout. Looks cobbled from other people's ideas and not as solid. (I am a Graphic Designer though, so ... grain of salt)
- I think the backgrounds *might* be too long. Some might prefer it. I prefer an idea to base MY presentation around if I'm the Narrator using the idea. Too much detail either makes me not want to read it, or discard and make my own. Usually a little of both. I prefer "unique archetypes" = a short idea of background for me to add fluff as Narrator. This goes into the area that (I feel) is a mistake for hobby publishers sometimes. Many folks want to get their shiny little idea out without really considering how buyers will USE them. Me, I won't likely play a game in the "Zenith Universe", no offense, I'll more likely use something of my own. That said, I don't need detailed connected origin materials. I just need a cool concept. Quick and easy to read.
- Not a fan of the cover image... just not my style of liking.
- I'd like to have seen a little "what is this" about the fact it uses the BASH! game. Some props and support to BASH! in some way for fans buying who know nothing about the game.
- 2-3 custom rules are always fun, nothing complex just unique additions for characters that could use a unique rule twist. (Bug screams for something like this)
- I like seeing "Narrator Commentary" on WHY things were built for stats in such a way. I may have missed that if it's in there. But I like to know WHY, so I can consider building future characters.
- No page numbers? (I am a huge "reference source" guy)
- More! I want more characters, (but interestingly less detail on characters backgrounds) for my $2. (beating that old horse from another thread)



Hope that helps. It's generally where my review will go in better detail and explanation of my Cons and Pros.
-kev-

[kevperrine]

What do you mean by password protected?

Regards,
Walt

P.S. we installed no passwords on it. Do you have to enter a password every time you want to view it?

Here's what I see.



That big yellow bar, means I can't alter anything in the PDF. It doesn't stop piracy or anything. It's just bothersome for a Narrator like me that can and wants to use the product for a game prop.

(NOTE: I will obviously NOT pirate or do anything negative with my purchase. We're a shared hobby group, I'm not asking these questions to do anything wrong. Just use the product the way I like.)

-kev-

[AslanC]

I have no idea why that is there, since we have not password protected the PDFs man.

Sorry, wish I could help you but I have no idea what that is.

[BASHMAN]

Can't you still select text and take snapshots of it? That's what I usually do if I want info out of a pdf to put somewhere else (usually in word).

[drkrash]

Heh. As the height of laziness, I’m going to offer some more details to my original comments, using kev’s list as an outline.

PROS:
- I was happily surprised by the art, some are better than others. I wasn't originally a fan of that art style. It comes across well for about 70% of the characters. Again, details in the full review. (I am a *visual* image guy, so that will be focused on)

DK: I like the art well enough. I like some better than others. I like it better than Icons. I like Skullsmasher’s chest insignia a lot. All the “now generation” of supers products seem to be going the “animated” route – I like it, but I do miss traditional comic book art.

- I like the format: with a full character sheet separate, as noted... I like printing CS and Background double-sided.

DK: I think I do as well, and again, am curious why you were counseled otherwise. There may be a good reason – but I can’t think of it.

- the "old school" style of paper figs in the back were a good idea.

DK: I think these were very fun – but I’d likely never use them. As noted by this whole post, I can be lazy with game prep (kev totally puts me to shame in this regard!). To use the standees, I need to print them out on cardstock (which I don’t have), use color ink, and then cut them out. Or I can throw down a Heroclix that’s close enough and show the players a picture. But the nostalgia value from V&V is very high.

- the stats (though I've not looked in detail) look solidly thought out, I'll be interested to read them thoroughly and consider the build combinations more.

DK: Also haven’t gone through them in depth. I have to admit, they look awfully complicated for BASH write-ups. I wonder: were they converted from another supers system? That may have something to do with it.

CONS:
- While the character art is pretty cool, the "action shots" of those same characters are not so great. In comparison I'd say they're 30% okay, the opposite of the character art.

DK: I guess I see kev’s point, but considering how difficult it is to get art at all, having EXTRA art is almost always a good thing, unless it was just bad, which I don’t think this is. I thought Nightshroud’s (I think that’s his name) was very effective, and I thought Wolfen’s was more evocative than his main illo. The others, I agree, were perhaps less effective, but still, more art generally = better.

- I am not a fan of the page layout. I see the potential, just not feeling the style of the layout. Looks cobbled from other people's ideas and not as solid. (I am a Graphic Designer though, so ... grain of salt)

DK: I don’t get this at all. What’s not to like? You want a roster book to be clean and easy to read. It happens to follow the old FASERIP guides, which I thought was a good homage.

- I think the backgrounds *might* be too long. Some might prefer it. I prefer an idea to base MY presentation around if I'm the Narrator using the idea. Too much detail either makes me not want to read it, or discard and make my own. Usually a little of both. I prefer "unique archetypes" = a short idea of background for me to add fluff as Narrator. This goes into the area that (I feel) is a mistake for hobby publishers sometimes. Many folks want to get their shiny little idea out without really considering how buyers will USE them. Me, I won't likely play a game in the "Zenith Universe", no offense, I'll more likely use something of my own. That said, I don't need detailed connected origin materials. I just need a cool concept. Quick and easy to read.

DK: I don’t know if I agree with kev or not. I agree in that I was shocked at how detailed they were, and it is true that I wouldn’t be using their Zenith histories in my games. I haven’t had a chance to read any of them yet, but if they are a good read, there’s value in that. A good story is a good story. kev, be forewarned that my book(s) will also be shiny little ideas with connected origin materials.

- Not a fan of the cover image... just not my style of liking.

DK: Details? Isn’t “the group shot” appropriate for this sort of thing? I thought it was fine and exactly what I expected. I was a little curious why some of the characters looked different than their internal illos. Weren’t they the same artist (there is only one credited)?

- I'd like to have seen a little "what is this" about the fact it uses the BASH! game. Some props and support to BASH! in some way for fans buying who know nothing about the game.

DK: I don’t need this. I wouldn’t have bought this if I wasn’t a BASH player and the big splashy “For BASH” graphic tells me everything I need to know. I doubt many non-BASH players will pick it up, and if they do, I’d let the character sheets do the talking.

- 2-3 custom rules are always fun, nothing complex just unique additions for characters that could use a unique rule twist. (Bug screams for something like this)

DK: I suppose. I’d rather a book that has little to no additional rules if the game’s designers didn’t come up with them.

- I like seeing "Narrator Commentary" on WHY things were built for stats in such a way. I may have missed that if it's in there. But I like to know WHY, so I can consider building future characters.

DK: I agree that this is cool, but I don’t consider necessary for this kind of book. That’s what friendly internet forums are for!

- No page numbers? (I am a huge "reference source" guy)

DK: Have to agree here. Considering each character is multiple pages, even a TOC would not have been out of the question.

- More! I want more characters, (but interestingly less detail on characters backgrounds) for my $2. (beating that old horse from another thread)

DK: Yeah, I’ve already commented on this (in contrast to kev) up above. I thought it was a better value than Vigilance Press’ $2 offerings. I was pleasantly surprised by the length and detail.

[Lindharin]

Also haven’t gone through them in depth. I have to admit, they look awfully complicated for BASH write-ups. I wonder: were they converted from another supers system? That may have something to do with it.

No, they were created for BASH first.

I'm hoping that the characters stats themselves aren't actually too complex, but that the impression of complication is due to all the extra text included in the stat blocks. If that is the case, then it is due to a deliberate experiment on our part. We tried something a little different in the stat blocks, and they are clearly much more wordy than the standard Bash character sheets.

Because we had full page character sheets, we had a fair amount of extra space to play with, so I included brief notes on key details about the powers right in the stat block, to help make it easier for someone to use the printed character sheet without needing to constantly reference the book or forget key elements. The intent was to help people new to the game, and just make it easier for those of us who don't memorize the whole book.

For example, it doesn't just say "Attack Weak Point (2pts)", it also has a little note reminding the narrator that it does extra damage if you hit by 20, and that you can spend a hero point to use your attack roll for the damage roll (something a lot of people forget). [Edit for clarity: Not all powers got notes; just ones that seemed to possibly benefit from reminders, which is itself a judgment call]

Similarly, for powers with multiple options, or anything with the Variable enhancement, it lists some of the common ways that character might use it. They aren't intended to be exclusive choices, but just some quick "cheat sheets" for the narrator so he doesn't need to calculate all to hit, damage, range and area combinations on the fly. And in a few cases, like Skullsmasher, the extra wordiness let us explain a bit how some non-standard power combinations and limitations were intended to work.

The downside to this approach was that it makes the stat blocks look a lot longer and, well, more complicated. Hopefully when people are using it they'll find the reverse is true, that it makes understanding and playing the characters simpler.

It'll be up to you folks to tell us if that extra detail is worthwhile, or if including it in the stat blocks just makes it more difficult to find what you are looking for. Maybe a different format would be better, with a standard "power names plus enhancment/limitations only" in the main stat block, and a separate area at the bottom of the sheet for cheat-sheet style notes.

Anyway, we're definitely interested in feedback on this aspect of the character stat blocks, because it will affect whether it gets used again in future products.

[BrianK]

I am very happy with the purchase. I am one of those people that are all about the background. To me supers are the same, it is the background that makes it pop.

So, I get 11 villians, some nice background, a a few ideas to steal.

So, for $1.96 Cdn, it was a great purchase!!! Looking forward to Vol 2...get to work man... sheesh... the ink is almost dryed on this one!!

Make that Vol 3...

<edit>

[urbwar]

I loved the detail on the character sheets. I think it is very helpful for people new to the game to get a better feel for what a character can do. I hope you continue to do so, and it's something I hope to do if I ever get something out myself.

As easy as BASH is, the need for clarity on what a character can actually do really helps. I find that examples make game play that much better.

[kevperrine]

I loved the detail on the character sheets..

Detail?
To what detail are you referring exactly?

[urbwar]

The detail in their powers. Thought I was fairly clear about that with the rest of my comments. Sorry if I wasn't

[kevperrine]

The detail in their powers. Thought I was fairly clear about that with the rest of my comments. Sorry if I wasn't

hehe, nah.... I'm just dense.

BTW - I've never said.... but I love your avatar and character "The Badge" (correct?) ... man, I wish I'd thought of that!

-kev-

[kevperrine]

Hey! How're sales going? Curious minds! hehe

-kev-

[kroh]

Bam for the third day in a row.

(as of 4:30 on 2/23/2011 we were number one for the third day in a row.)

Regards,
Walt

[drkrash]

Interesting observation: 28 of the Top 100 on that list are superhero products.

[urbwar]

As of 1:16 AM on 2/24/11, it's still #1 on RPGNow. Considering there were 2 new ICONS books released shortly around the same time, as well as 2 or 3 M&M 3rd releases, and it's still #1, is a very good sign to me. I was worried that the new stuff from Vigilance would replace it at #1 (as I've noticed they tend to hit #1, even if only for a day) shows that the market for BASH products is there, and can compete with ICONS books for sales (meaning there is room for products of both games to prosper).

I hope this encourages others to delve into releasing 3rd party BASH products