Why is super speed tiring?

[dugfromthearth]

I get why hover is maintained and flight is sustained (or the reverse). Adding an advantage to a 1pt power makes it more useful, and you cannot make the power 0pts without the advantage.

But I do not understand why limitations are added to powers - like tiring on super speed or concentration on force field.

Why not just make them cost 1 more point and not have the limitation?

I get the idea that you cannot take tiring off of superspeed (although you can power stunt to do it). Except there is dual strike and such that give you 2 attacks without being tiring.

So why does the system decide that for everyone superspeed is tiring? Why not give the players that choice?

[Dustland]

concentration on force field

I can answer this one based off Bashman's answer a while back. If you don't have this restriction, a player can keep an opponent in a "perpetual loop" of force fields. Opponent uses his action to destroy the force field, the player errects another one, it goes on forever. That was the idea behind the concentration limitation, giving an opponent the ability to free themselves from a force field AND act before another force field is placed around them.

Imagine how annoying that would be if a villain did that to you as a player, not much fun.

Except there is dual strike and such that give you 2 attacks without being tiring

Except that there's limitations to these powers; some give you a penalty to your attacks, or you can only attack but not move. Super Speed can do anything except Heal two or three times a page. Having to only take one action every couple of pages doesn't seem that big of a drawback for the sheer awesomeness of Super Speed.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

[drkrash]

Your question is a valid one in the abstract, but I personally think Tiring is the bare minimum needed to make Super Speed balanced. Three points to get a 50% increase in how often I can attack or move? Five points to double it? These are huge benefits.

If you removed Tiring, there would be no reason NOT to spend 3 points for many, many character archetypes.

YMMV, etc.

[dugfromthearth]

if you removed tiring it would be 4 points.

I agree that 3 points is too low. 4 points might be too low. The problem there is scale. 4 points for a 20 pt character is a lot, for a 40 pt character it is not. Every cosmic character should have super speed 2. At 60 points it is downright cheap.

I can see the forcefield limitation. We have a character with a forcefield and it struck me as remarkably cheap and easy to keep a foe in place - concentration is the limiting factor. So that makes sense.

[kevperrine]

The problem there is scale. 4 points for a 20 pt character is a lot, for a 40 pt character it is not. Every cosmic character should have super speed 2. At 60 points it is downright cheap.

This is a NEAT conversation point I'd like to start a new thread on, to not hijack this neat thread. You can read/reply to that here: http://bashtalk.org/modules.php?name=Fo ... =8695#8695



Overall. Dug, I am very interested in your thoughts (the several you've been posting) on the things and questions you're finding as you play that are concerns. I like seeing these because:

a. it helps me consider things to watch for when playing/Narrating.

b. I'm always excited to see "play-test" thoughts throughout the entire run of a game system, possibly giving the author/creator of the game ideas to make it more streamlined and fair (note: I did NOT say "balanced", that's very different and sometimes not fun).

c. I'm always taking notes for ideas when I make my own grand supers game, haha...



thanks!
-kev-

[Nestor]

concentration on force field

I can answer this one based off Bashman's answer a while back. If you don't have this restriction, a player can keep an opponent in a "perpetual loop" of force fields. Opponent uses his action to destroy the force field, the player errects another one, it goes on forever. That was the idea behind the concentration limitation, giving an opponent the ability to free themselves from a force field AND act before another force field is placed around them.

I remember that discussion.

I also recall my response, that being that the concentration limitation flies in the face of the archetypical force-field wielders in the comics (e.g., Susan Richards, Violet Parr) who threw shields immediately up as a defense reaction.

I suggested as an alternative to have the Force-fields not reinforceable (i.e., the user can't "heal" the Hits while the field is up) and to establish a delay when re-applying the Field after it's been knocked down.

That way you can have the scene of the FF wielder crouching behind his shield, saying in a strained voice, "it won't hold much longer..." as the villains pour on the attacks.

[dugfromthearth]

you can put up a ff as a defensive action - it takes a hero die to stunt and get rid of the concentration limitation for a turn

[drkrash]

I still think Tiring is a necessary limiter for Super Speed myself. Why should there be an expectation that every 40+ character have this just because they're cosmic? Wouldn't that just make everyone's turn longer with an ultimate zero sum?

I think it works for speedsters, paragons who are more than the average superhero, and master villains who need to take on teams by themselves. I'd hate to see it so affordable as to be a "must have" for any reasonable high-power build. But that might just be me.

[dugfromthearth]

why should every 40+ pt character get it - because the effect are amazingly powerful for the cost.

you can choose not to. You can choose to have a x1 to hit and x1 damage if you want. You will just be much less effective.

"paragons who are more than the average superhero" -
every 40+ pt character is more than the average superhero. That's why they are 40+ points

[drkrash]

OK. We will politely disagree on this point then.