BASH! UE character BUILDER

[kevperrine]

Daze has no range or area built into the cost. Those indicators only mean that you can add range and area. So if a power is Daze, Mid Range, that would be 4pts. Daze with no points in range is 2pts and has a range of touch.

Okay.
I should not have used an example.
DAZE (or any single power) is not my question.

I am looking to understand the difference in the text (punctuation choice) of the various powers that are listed as:

POWER NAME
"xx" pts
followed immediately by either a
COMMA or SEMI-COLON
followed then by
either "power indicators" (such as Area, Range, Mainstained, Sustained) and/or "limitations/enhancements"


What is the meaning and/or differences between the powers that have the pts cost followed by a COMMA vs. SEMI-COLON?


[NOTE: I want to be clear... This may seem/sound snarky since I am sort of (possibly??) nitpicking two different punctuation marks. I promise it is NOT. But for the Excel project I'm working on, understanding cost and how the powers are purchased with their Power Indicators, Enhancements and Limitations I'm wondering if there IS a difference OR if it's simply grammatical error (consistency).]

Your question about "ranks and cost" is confusing to me, but yes, powers have "levels". That said, I don't think I'd let someone take level 4 or 2 in a power made for levels 1, 3, or 5.

Yeah, hehe...
Let me try to explain.
This is a weird "ah HA!" moment that my pal and I had tonight. I wanted to ask to see if our revelation was correct.
At no point in the BASH! UE core book (that I've found) has powers "ranked" (Rank 1, 2, 3, ... 10, etc..) like many other RPGs do.
Instead BASH! seems to list powers with "Levels" that do NOT necessarily correspond to a numerical ranking. (some powers like Invisibility just do not have "ranks" or "levels" 2 and 4 for the power)
We came to the revelation that we had been thinking of ALL powers in "ranks" that corresponded to 1-for-1 rank/point cost. When that is completely incorrect.
The level of the power is NOT necessarily the same as the COST of the power (as it is often with the "rank" of a power x the "cost" per rank in other point buy RPGs). The COST is based on the level and all of the Power Indicators, Enhancements and Limitations, which may be higher in number than the LEVEL of the power.

The cost of things like Range and Area are added after this, not taken out of it (an error from the first printing that will be fixed in the next one).

So Special Attack 2, Mid Range costs 4pts.

Okay.
I think I got it.

Basically ALL powers are purchased at the cost listed under the power ... PERIOD. If you add ANY "Power Indicator" (Area: Burst, Arc, Line; Range; Maintained; Sustained) or any Enhancements and Limitations... those ADD to that base cost on each power listing.
And...
The "other information" listed (after the comma or semi-colon) following the pts cost beneath the Power are ONLY suggestions for that power. Not in any way mandatory.

Correct?

[Again, just trying to get a crystal clear answer]
thanks again!!
-kev-

[Lindharin]

No, the stuff after the comma or semi-colon are mandatory and included in the cost. For threads with Bashman's clarifications on this, see:

http://bashtalk.org/modules.php?name=Fo ... opic&t=199

http://bashtalk.org/modules.php?name=Fo ... opic&t=374

For example, Super Speed is ALWAYS tiring. You pay 3 or 5 points, to get 1 or 2 extra panels, but you can't use it more than 2 panels in a row. It's there for balance reasons. The only exception is if you "buy off" the Tiring inherent limitation, which isn't discussed explicitly in the first printing of the book, but has been discussed on these forums and I think Bashman said will be added to the next printing (as an effect of Second Nature, I believe).

Other examples: Force Field always requires Concentration to activate, Omni-Linguist is always Personal, etc. Again, the only exceptions are if you take an advantage to change that.

The most often confusing aspect of this seems to be the Range and Area keywords/power indicators. When you see Range or Area after the semi-colon/comma, that does not mean you get "free" range or area. That just means you are allowed to pay for levels or range or area, if you want to have a range or area of effect on that power. If a power does not have those keywords/power indicators, then you CANNOT buy levels of range or area (again, unless you take an enhancement to allow it).

If you look in the enhancements section, you'll find there is a Range enhancement and an Area enhancement that are separate from buying amounts of range/area; all those enhancements do is allow you to have the option for buying range / area on a power where that isn't normally allowed. You have to buy those enhancements before purchasing actual amounts of range/area, if the power doesn't have them by default.

For example, Special Attack (and most other offensive combat powers) have the Range and Area "power indicators" (enhancements, actually) already included. So I can buy Special Attack +2 DM for 2 pts, and then just tack on Close Range for +1 pt, and Small Burst for +1 point. That's a total of 4 points to buy.

However, say I want to get a version of Boost that I can use to boost the stats of all my allies in an area within 5 sq. of me. So I take Boost 2 for 2 points. Next, since Boost has the "Personal" power indicator (see comment below), I have to buy Affects Others to offset the inherent limitation of Personal, which adds +1 point. Next I have to buy the enhancements Range and Area (+1 pt each) just to have the ability to buy the desired amounts of range/area. Finally, I spend 1 pt for Close range, and 1 pt for Small Burst. All total, that costs 2 + 1 + 2 + 2 = 7 pts.

As a side note, while you are working on your spreadsheet, make sure you note that many powers have keywords/power indicators that are NOT listed on the powers, but are instead listed in the summary paragraph at the beginning of the power category. For example, look at the first paragraph under the Bio Manipulation and Movement power categories. Those entire categories have the Personal power indicator, so it wasn't included on the individual power entries. That's why in my Boost example above I needed to use Affects Others to get around that. I don't recall off the top of my head if any other power categories have category-wide keywords/indicators, but it would be worth checking for your character builder.

[kevperrine]

Good. Thanks for the reply. I *hope* that's accurate. I just can't tell from reading the rules, sometimes they're unclear.

One thing I would love to solve. A simple question.

WHAT is the difference (in the power section) between the COMMA and the SEMI-COLON after the "pts" on many powers?

Is this a grammatical point (error?) only, or does it actually MEAN something?

And in an update/errata to the next rule printing, I'd love to see the issues in this thread explained more clearly in the rule reading.


Thanks.
-kev-

[Lindharin]

As far as I know, there is no meaning to the comma or semi-colon, just a spacer that is inconsistent.

[kevperrine]

As far as I know, there is no meaning to the comma or semi-colon, just a spacer that is inconsistent.

hehe...
Thanks. Maybe BASHMAN can clarify to make sure.

I'm not being a snarky grammar guy here (I HATE that). The thing is... in reading the rules and deciphering them for needs of a character builder like this I'm trying to figure out the details.

And... honestly I'm coming from two different points here.

#1. reading/playing Magic the Gathering cards, where EVERY word and position of the word in the sentence on the rule card MEAN something.

#2. reading/playing D&D4, that is similar to MtG with "keywords" and grammar.


Like it or not, that's the way many game design needs to function or at least consider nowadays. I don't like it much, but many MANY people (including almost all my gamer pals) tend to read the LETTER of the rule then move on to the spirit/fun/inspiration. Rather than the reverse (which is the way RPGs have been written BEFORE MtG and D&D4 in my opinion).

So... In my wording of rules and such (when I write them), I try to be solid with the grammar (even though I stink at it) and syntax and clear simple language of the sentence. As best I can anyway.
To "combat" this new "need" to be letter-of-the-rule BUT at the same time write the spirit-of-the-rule that I love.


In a way the modern style of rule-pixel-* with a list of "keywords" and such can be both very healthy to a game and at the same time frustrating to Narrators/GMs that just want to enjoy the SPIRIT of the idea.
So...
Like it or not, I tend to "play to the crowd" and read/write the rules for those rule-lawyers to avoid problems.

thoughts?
-kev-

[ozchandler]

how goes it with this project? i'm looking forward to using it! thanx for the time and effort put into this!!!

[BASHMAN]

What is the meaning and/or differences between the powers that have the pts cost followed by a COMMA vs. SEMI-COLON?

That is just a typo. It is going to be fixed in the next printing.

[kevperrine]

how goes it with this project? i'm looking forward to using it! thanx for the time and effort put into this!!!

Sadly.... Slow. I am NOT an Excel guru. I understand what it can do (the POWER of a cool Excel character builder is awesome). And I can see how/why things get made in Excel formulas... but I can't intuitively write them.

My buddy I'm asking for help with this can. At least alot of the things I'm looking for.

The stinky thing is.... relying on someone else's help... makes for slow building. We're hip deep in fixing the "powers" tab for choices. Then we need to hit ADS/DISADS. And then wrap up the little things. Which I will then finish the "design" of what the final output will be (the looks of the 2-3 character sheet options).

That said. We're hitting the BIG bear of the builder now, with the hardest things to implement. Which is why I'm asking these weird (detailed) questions.

As is, my buddy has been helping me one evening a week. 3-5 hours at a time. Not all the time is "work" ... alot is planning and reading/deciphering how the rules will work well and easy into the Excel builder for each player use.


so...
it's coming along good... just slow.
On a side note, I'm going to try and make a simple Form-fillable character sheet PDF this weekend that was asked about in another thread. It won't have any auto-calculations or anything... simple a form-fill and print, just like hand writing it. But I dig the easy option to do digital edits and prints. So a PDF will due for now. Also... I'm interested in working out how to build form-fillable in Adobe Acrobat. I think I figured it out mostly very quickly. Now I just need to implement what I taught myself. hehe...


thoughts?
-kev-

[ozchandler]

great! thanx for the update.

[kevperrine]

great! thanx for the update.

Sidebar. If anyone IS an Excel person... I would be happy sending you what I have so far for thoughts/comments. If anyone is interested in working on it with me, I'm happy doing so.

-kev-

[kevperrine]

What is the meaning and/or differences between the powers that have the pts cost followed by a COMMA vs. SEMI-COLON?

That is just a typo. It is going to be fixed in the next printing.

Good to note. Thank you.
-kev-