Angels, Demons, Supers

drkrash · Post by **drkrash** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:50 am

Would there be any interest in a generally traditionalist superhero setting (with a "Modern/Bronze" ethos) that also incorporated the Judeo-Christian concept of angels and demons as a significant part of the world?

I'm an independent publisher and myself and one of my artists are also big BASH fans. I'm toying with the idea of writing a licensed supplement that Bob would do the art for, but frankly, I'm super busy with Fight! right now, so I was kind of inquiring to know whether I should even consider giving mental space to the idea or not.

Since religious ideas are potentially controversial, I should explain that my intended approach is respectful of Christian teaching (as we are Christian and I am a professional theologian), but the setting wouldn't be a lot of "Jesus-lovin' heroes" in white facing a bunch of guys with horns and goatees.

(If you've read my book Wake, you can see what I mean!)

TommyBrownell · Post by **TommyBrownell** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:21 pm

I'd be interested, personally...

Dustland · Post by **Dustland** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Could you expand on the idea a bit?

drkrash · Post by **drkrash** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:27 pm

Dustland wrote:Could you expand on the idea a bit?

I would love to, but honestly, it's even a mental work in progress. Here's a few notes. Please keep in mind that these are very underdeveloped; just mental brain food for the moment.

* Here's a big point: much like the Celestials were responsible for life and super powers happening in the Marvel universe, the original War in Heaven of Judeo-Christian tradition is the ongoing reason why human beings gain super powers. This is not to say that all super powers are the direct work of divine (or diabolic) intervention, but rather that the metaphysical source of all super powers, whether they be mutation, scientific accident, inspiration to peak human training, or scientific inspiration, is divine or diabolic power. That deserves greater explanation, but I'll leave it at that for now.

The role of angels and demons themselves in super affairs is to subtly inspire heroism or villainy. Again, not in a "a bright figure appears to you and tells you to be rightwous" sort of way, but rather the human character that chooses to be heroic and put his or her life on the line for others is ultimately inspired by the War in Heaven...and this next part is important...whether or not the person actually knows or acknowledges it as such. Thus, you don't need all heroes (or even most heroes) to be any sort of "holy rollers." But when they say they fight "on the side of the angels," whether they know it or not, this is not mere metaphor.

* OTOH, because of this cosmological scheme, there would be some explicitly religious (or diabolic) heroes and villains in the world as well. For example, the Vatican would have its own super team (and no, I don't subscribe to the popular trope that the Vatican is secretly evil or what have you).

Feel free to ask more pointed questions; it will only help me to develop and clarify my thoughts. But these are some of the basic assumptions I was beginning with.

MrJupiter · Post by **MrJupiter** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:15 am

I think this sort of thing would be really cool. I'd love to hear more on this. Would Marvel's Defenders (from the early-to-mid-eighties) fit into a setting like this? I loved early Spawn and other comics like the Defenders so a religiously themed supernatural setting would be a great pick-up for me.

drkrash · Post by **drkrash** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:13 am

MrJupiter wrote:I think this sort of thing would be really cool. I'd love to hear more on this. Would Marvel's Defenders (from the early-to-mid-eighties) fit into a setting like this? I loved early Spawn and other comics like the Defenders so a religiously themed supernatural setting would be a great pick-up for me.

Thanks. I'll post more as I work some of this out. Keep in mind that my core idea is that much of the "surface" of the setting wouldn't be too different-looking than a more "traditional" setting. But I can see that changing as necessary to make the setting distinctive as well.

MrJupiter · Post by **MrJupiter** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:38 am

Oh so a more, in the shadows kind of war of good vs. evil. That would be a fun aspect to play.

urbwar · Post by **urbwar** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:30 am

I thought Wake was fantastic. To me, any support for BASH right now is a good thing. ICONS gets so much buzz, imho, partly because of the mass amounts of supplements for it in such short order. It's a good game, but I feel BASH is equally as good. So yeah, I'd say there would be interest. Now if only Aslan C would get his villains book out....

drkrash · Post by **drkrash** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:46 am

urbwar wrote:I thought Wake was fantastic. To me, any support for BASH right now is a good thing. ICONS gets so much buzz, imho, partly because of the mass amounts of supplements for it in such short order. It's a good game, but I feel BASH is equally as good. So yeah, I'd say there would be interest. Now if only Aslan C would get his villains book out....

Thank you so much for the kind words about Wake. It means a lot to me.

I also specifically referenced that because there is a strong implied Christian cosmology at work in that book, yet I didn't think it was "in your face religious," nor do I think it detracted from the core theme of bloody horror of Pandemonium. That "unobtrusiveness" is what I would want to be shooting for.

BillionSix · Post by **BillionSix** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:50 am

How does free will factor into this?

If I gain power through divine energy, is it because I am Good and therefore attract that energy?
Or is it kind of random, and you can get a divinely powered supervillain, or a diabolically powered hero?
If the energy is drawn to you because of your nature, can your nature change? Meaning, if I am a good person, and gain divine powers, can I become corrupted later. If I am evil and gain diabolic powers, can I redeem myself?

Never heard of Wake. What's it about?

drkrash · Post by **drkrash** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:44 am

BillionSix wrote:How does free will factor into this?

If I gain power through divine energy, is it because I am Good and therefore attract that energy?
Or is it kind of random, and you can get a divinely powered supervillain, or a diabolically powered hero?
If the energy is drawn to you because of your nature, can your nature change? Meaning, if I am a good person, and gain divine powers, can I become corrupted later. If I am evil and gain diabolic powers, can I redeem myself?

Never heard of Wake. What's it about?

Excellent. These are the kinds of questions I need to focus some of my ideas. Free will definitely remains prominent. The underlying metaphysic is that the war empowers human beings...but it is their free will that determines whether they are a hero or villain.

Some of my ideas for this are a more explicit development of my long-running Champions game (now defunct) and in that, there were several heroes who received their powers from a demonic source. (I didn't have any examples I recall of the opposite, but I can't see why that would be a problem).

I do like the idea, however, that the ultimate source of your powers (or your inspiration for your powers for gadget and training guys) is at least a "pull" on your actions.

Finally, Wake is a supplement for Dread and Spite, the Books of Pandemonium from Neoplastic Press. It combined the two games together and added a lot of cosmic war stuff, and was notable for me because it kept God from necessarily being the bloodthirsty * implied by the core setting.

TommyBrownell · Post by **TommyBrownell** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:23 pm

This reminds me that I really need to read Wake...I reviewed (and loved) Spite last year, but my review schedule is so heavy that it's easy to miss some books.

BillionSix · Post by **BillionSix** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:36 pm

drkrash wrote:Finally, Wake is a supplement for Dread and Spite, the Books of Pandemonium from Neoplastic Press. It combined the two games together and added a lot of cosmic war stuff, and was notable for me because it kept God from necessarily being the bloodthirsty * implied by the core setting.

Ah, cool! Years ago, I played a demo session of the 1st edition of Dread at a con here in Raleigh. Had fun.

I've been meaning to get back into the later edition of the game, but never got around to it.
The first edition of Dread was good, but felt a little unformed if that makes sense. Great vibe to it, though.

Brian

Jukeboxer · Post by **Jukeboxer** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:15 pm

To drkash: I like the basic premise of this! This sort of spiritual war theme has been in the back of my mind since I flipped through In Nomine about 10 years ago. In fact, my first supers campaign (M&M1e, San Angelo) required the PCs to have a background that justified their powers being divine gifts.

I'm likely in the minority, but I think it would be cool if the superheroes had the option to be arch-angels (in various forms) battling the forces of darkness in an overt way with a gothic, perhaps even post-apocalyptic backdrop. The apocalyptic event could be the catalyst for ripping the veil of the spiritual realm and causing the war to spill out into the streets of the material world.

Heavenly and hellish politics could add to the role-playing aspect. And maybe there could be a way to use an optional corruption/redemption mechanic to track for characters that are borderline. Maybe corruption/redemption points could be used to trigger power stunts too.

drkrash · Post by **drkrash** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:13 pm

Jukeboxer wrote:To drkash: I like the basic premise of this! This sort of spiritual war theme has been in the back of my mind since I flipped through In Nomine about 10 years ago. In fact, my first supers campaign (M&M1e, San Angelo) required the PCs to have a background that justified their powers being divine gifts.

I'm likely in the minority, but I think it would be cool if the superheroes had the option to be arch-angels (in various forms) battling the forces of darkness in an overt way with a gothic, perhaps even post-apocalyptic backdrop. The apocalyptic event could be the catalyst for ripping the veil of the spiritual realm and causing the war to spill out into the streets of the material world.

Heavenly and hellish politics could add to the role-playing aspect. And maybe there could be a way to use an optional corruption/redemption mechanic to track for characters that are borderline. Maybe corruption/redemption points could be used to trigger power stunts too.

Thanks for the thoughts! I actually like a lot of your ideas, though I suspect a few might be more "in your face" than I was going for (especially the post-apocalyptic bit).

A few other existing comic inspirations: Leifeld's Avengelyne, Top Cow's Magdalena and even the Witchblade universe to a certain degree, the Chaos War crossover in Marvel, the alien races in Image's Wildcats, and...uh...a couple others I can't recall.

There may be some slight concern on the part of some that the religious thematics are going to be too controversial. Not my intent at all. But honestly, since Divine Madness Press is more or less a one-man show and I have two more books coming out in 2011 for Fight!, any enthusiasm anyone had for this idea might compel me to move this from a "thinking about it" to a "do it" and hopefully for Chris to sign off on his official seal of approval (which I won't work without). So, yeah, I'm trolling for some cheering!