Starting Points

[Nestor]

But that does lead to a curiosity I have, and it's really critical for me to point out that I am not trying to bait or antagonize anyone here, but it seems odd to be on a designer's forum and have such critical comments almost to the point of "the game fundamentally doesn't work in several important ways." With so many options available for supers, why struggle with BASH when you could find something that works more to your liking? Character builds and hero points seem rather intrinsic to what BASH is. Again, I'm not complaining; I'm genuinely curious given the apparent fervor of some of the frustration expressed here. I'm more accustomed to a game's personal forums being far more fanboi.

A fair statement.

I would reply by saying I'm not trying to be antagonistic and if that is how my responses are coming across as, I apologize.

RPG systems are, at their root, used to model the genre they're built for. To evaluate how successful a system is at doing that, I look for the intent behind the rules mechanics (i.e. what is the system trying to model here?).

My desire here is not to make accusations, but to obtain an understanding. I'm trying to decide if BASH is "to my liking."

Is BASH designed to establish a substantial gulf between human and superhuman, so that people with superpowers are automatically far above the rest of the crowd? If so, that's fine. That's a design paradigm. If not, then we need to address the issue that the rules mechanics do create that separation.

If this is not a discussion people are willing to engage in, fine. I'll sit down and shut up.

[BeardedDork]

In contrast, a person with normal intelligence in BASH (x1 DM) has less than 20% chance of success (approx 17% if my math is right) against a Typical Difficulty task (10).

a hair less than 17% (almost 22% with specialization) if you are going by a strict interpretation of the guidelines presented. Those guidelines, like everything else in the game, are mutable when common sense is applied to them. If being able to reliably use your mental skills is a matter of importance for your character, you will probably pick a mind of 2 or better, or boost mind skill use, or some other similar option.

The game is a supers game at it's heart, and is constructed around the things a super can do, without much consideration to how an average person fits into the picture other than in the roll of a minion. If you want to depict a normal person competing in the world of superpowered people, that's fine you can do it and do it well, but you have to be willing and able to use the hero points you will have to close the gulf between your normal and the suprhumans around him. If it's a matter of your brick has an average intelligence then you will probably want to rely on a team member with a higher mind stat to do the more cerebral things that need to be done, or to help out should you encounter a mentalist.

Role playing is usually a team sport.

[dugfromthearth]

But that does lead to a curiosity I have, and it's really critical for me to point out that I am not trying to bait or antagonize anyone here, but it seems odd to be on a designer's forum and have such critical comments almost to the point of "the game fundamentally doesn't work in several important ways." With so many options available for supers, why struggle with BASH when you could find something that works more to your liking?

Every system has tradeoffs. There is no perfect system. You balance complexity vs variety, ease of play, etc. BASH is a good system, it has a good balance. Not being perfect does not make it not good.

also

"The game is a supers game at it's heart, and is constructed around the things a super can do, without much consideration to how an average person fits into the picture other than in the roll of a minion. "

This is true. If you just play superheroes and ignore normal people, then it play fine. But you have to abandon any normal person concept.

In the 1960's, superheroes were generally normals with one power. Angel was a normal guy with wings. Cyclops was a normal guy who could shoot eyebeams. They had normal human intelligence, agility, brawn, etc.

BASH does not work on that scale. BASH works on the scale of superman, spiderman, wonder woman - where every character is exceptional in every way.

Being a long time roleplayer I can deal with that, but I'd prefer if I did not have to. I don't want to have to ignore concept and make every hero a supergenius and an olympic level gymnast.

[BeardedDork]

This is true. If you just play superheroes and ignore normal people, then it play fine. But you have to abandon any normal person concept.

My experience has been very different from that, in my first BASH campaign almost everybody was for the most part a normal person it worked very well everybody had a blast. We used templates from the books, the renaissance man, the jetpack jock, the twin pistoleer, and the animal genius, I set the game at 30 points. They faced real supervillains the likes of Mr. Freeze, and the Red Hood, and ultimately came out on top everytime. Normal people can compete and compete well, like I said you need to be comfortable using hero points, they make all the difference in the world.

EDIT: as a side note everytime they faced a major villain the player of the animal genius was unable to attend, it just happened to work out that way. Meaning the major victories were accomplished by the normal people on their own.

Also in your example of the X-men they have people to cover each others weaknesses that's how a superteam works, and it's the factor that has been consistantly ignored in this discussion.

[Nestor]

The game is a supers game at it's heart, and is constructed around the things a super can do, without much consideration to how an average person fits into the picture other than in the roll of a minion. If you want to depict a normal person competing in the world of superpowered people, that's fine you can do it and do it well, but you have to be willing and able to use the hero points you will have to close the gulf between your normal and the suprhumans around him. If it's a matter of your brick has an average intelligence then you will probably want to rely on a team member with a higher mind stat to do the more cerebral things that need to be done, or to help out should you encounter a mentalist.

Ah, but you see, even a superhero world has normal humans. A world with Superman also has Perry White, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane. Spider-Man lives and deals with folks such as Mary Jane Parker and J. Jonah Jameson.

No matter how much the system focuses on superheroes, you have to be able to reliably and reasonably accurately define the normals they will interact with.

The issue becomes, as has already been stated: how does the system model a normal human, and does this model accurately reflect the expectations of what a normal human can do?

[BeardedDork]

Jimmy Olsen being a sidekick (very often) of an approximately 45 point character, is built with in the neighborhood of 40 character points meaning he has about 30ish maybe more hero points, he will succeed on almost everything he tries to do in an issue.

As background characters they succeed or fail as dictated by the needs of the story not the rolls of the dice.

How many rolls have you ever seen Aunt May, J.J.J. , or MJ even need to make, for me the answer is some where between 0-6 combined in about 10 years of reading spiderman, those years where in the nineties so maybe they have taken a more active role lately but I doubt it.

It's not a good idea to try to apply the system where it doesn't need to apply, almost everything these background humans do is better handled by narration than by trying to make the dice cooperate, with things that probably don't even happen "on the page".

[dugfromthearth]

We used templates from the books, the renaissance man, the jetpack jock, the twin pistoleer

... Meaning the major victories were accomplished by the normal people on their own.

I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I am willing to bet that those 3 do not have 1's for all of their stats.

[BeardedDork]

I don't have the book in front of me right now, but I am willing to bet that those 3 do not have 1's for all of their stats.

No they don't but they do have 1s on their sheets and their highest attribute is 2, and how many heroes are normal in every way anyway. Real people who are average in every way tend not to get very far ahead in real life without the added complication of supervillains. If you want a game that accurately and adequately simulates the trials and tribulations of normal people this isn't it, perhaps you could find a "Friends" RPG.

Logical extremes, aren't.

EDIT: my mistake the Jet pack jock has a 1 brawn and three mind, and the Renaissance man also has a three mind the rest of their attributes are all 2, which is still with in the range of a normal human.

[BillionSix]

I'll say this. A Body or Mind of 1 is good for a regular guy on the street. But you play heroes.
Let's take Cyclops. As a previous poster put it, X-Men tended to be "regular dude with one power"
But I'd give Cyclops a Body and Mind of 2. He works out and is tough. He is a smart guy and a good leader.
The rules say that two is like a football player or a PhD, but really? You don't have to take that literally. You can choose a 2 in Mind without having him be a brainy type. That just means he is a bright guy. You can further define him by his skill choices. The Beast on the other hand probably has a Mind of 3 or 4 and lots of scientific and knowledge skills.
I see 1 as "ordinary" and 2 as "good but not a defining characteristic"

Batman probably has a Body of 2. He's in excellent shape. But he's not known for his super-strength. But he is known for his keen intellect. He probably has a Mind of 4, with skills in Investigation or Detective or whatever it is called.

[dugfromthearth]

I think part of the difference of opinion is that you say "2, which is still with in the range of a normal human" and I read the rule as 1 is a normal human and 2 is the best possible human. 2 being "normal human" is exactly what I am asking for.

I'm going to end here, as this is a very minor part of the overall game and really just a difference of opinion as there is no mechanical limitation and even if it were we could just houserule it.

[BASHMAN]

You can always look at a 2 as being "well above average" instead of "peak" human, if you want more broad definitions; maybe figuring a 2+Heightened to be the "Peak" human. The BAM! #5 issue was focused on adding more granularity for "lower power" characters.

I know Heightened is not RAW, but it is going to be in the next printing (the 1pt training power that gives +3 result bonus to every roll w/ that stat). Essentially, it functions as an "in between" rank for stats.

For Physical Stats, this gives us a range of:

0 Severely Diminished Capacity
0+3 Diminished Capacity
1 Normal
1+3 Above Average
2 Professional
2+3 The Very Pinnacle of Human Ability

As for the difficulties, 10 was meant to be "typical" for something a superhero would even have to roll for. Anything less would just be automatic, no roll required. You could, I guess create a new "Difficulty" called "Easy" which would be a difficulty of 5. Personally, I just let those things be automatic.

Now if you want Aunt May to roll an Easy (5) Brawn Check to get the lid off that jar of pickles, you can, if you absolutely had to roll. For Aunt May, that'd be tough (she only rolls 1d6, she's pretty feeble). But for MJ it'd be relatively easy (she has a x1) and for Flash Thompson, it'd be a piece of cake (x1+3).

But most of the time, I wouldn't even require a roll for that; I'd just make it automatic. In "Five Minutes to Midnight" I have every skill check have a <10 result that still gives useful information; just with less detail than if they got a 10, 20, etc.

Another alternative would be to use the stat scale from BASH! Sci-Fi or BASH! Fantasy if the characters are all in the "Normal" range. The mechanics don't change, just the benchmarks.

[BeardedDork]

See the thing is the difference between "Normal" and "Average" is important, most people have 1s (average) in most things, that's going to be the baseline. Almost nobody is completely baseline in every way someone who is average in every way would not be normal. Almost everybody is above or below average at something. As for Cyclops being of average body take another look at him in his super suit and ask yourself if you know anybody that looks like that and would you consider it to be the average? I'm guessing no.

This may just be a crazy line of logic that others haven't followed yet but superheroes are almost without exception gifted athletes. If they weren't to begin with they would be soon, think of the workout that all that running dodging and punching would be.

[dugfromthearth]

BASHMAN - the definition of typical meaning "typical for superheroes" makes a huge difference.

I don't have Fantasy or Sci-Fi so I was not aware that the benchmarks changed.

so I'll call it good

[BASHMAN]

BASH Fantasy and Sci-Fi operate at "Heroic Scale" as opposed to the "Super-Heroic" scale of BASH! UE. So for instance, "Peak Human" Brawn and Agility are 4s, instead of 2s.

Those systems are designed for the characters to be "normal" in as much as a character from an action movie is "normal".

[Jason_Sunday]

So BeardedDork, following your logic, the intent of the game mechanics is for normal people to be fully and permanently disabled by Daze?

I think it is logical in a comic book way. I have seen many comics/ cartoons where the villain controls/dazes normal people with no trouble and even keep them under control more or less permenantly. Sometime even the heroes are controlled. Usually only a strong willed hero is able to break free and free the rest. So in this instance I think the game fits the genre.