Starting Points

[drkrash]

Boy, I haven't been here in about 4 months. I should have come back sooner. Things sure look like a lot more fun here than some of the utter nonsense that occurs on rpg.net!

Anyway...I'm here because of all the BASH threads there. All the talk has made me interested in potentially starting a new campaign, if my players are interested and have the time. So I'm doing some legwork.

I'm curious: what point totals have you chosen for starting characters in a campaign and why?

I think 25 point characters are pretty competent, but I was thinking more like a 30 point base to guarantee Hero Points.

Thoughts?

[BASHMAN]

I think you're right on the money. Here's a little trick I use:

Tell the players they have 25 points. Then when the campaign starts, make it a 30 pt game. This will give everyone an average of 5 Hero Points.

Also, when I run a session that seems ESPECIALLY challenging; I up the point total for that issue. So for instance, the issues where the Heroes were fighting some two-bit gangsters, I kept it 30 pts, but the session where they fought some HEAVY hitting villains all at once, I upped it to 40 pts for that issue! And they needed them!

[kevperrine]

Good topic.

In the campaign(s) that I've started for BASH! UE thusfar, this topic has been a confusing one for me.

One of the things I feel is a STRENGTH of BASH! UE is the ability to handle game-play with different "power levels" between hereos.
Having a Superman and a Green Arrow on the same team.

I've "defined" this for myself to want the players to BUILD until they're happy that their concept is solid. If that's a LESSER point value or the point value bumps cosmic - GREAT!

So I don't like "giving" the play group a set value for the campaign "level". I like giving the players an idea of what type of campaign I'm shooting for, then show them examples (either from comics or cartoons). I try to show (in those examples) the variety of heroes.

For example.
The recent campaign plan I did, showed various clips from the new Avengers cartoon as well as the Justice League cartoon. For both I found clips with both:
- Hulk/Thor and Wasp/Antman
- Captain Atom/Supergirl and Green Arrow

All in the same clips. To show examples of how play might go if you're the BIG dog or the little.


So...
My only question was HOW to best award or plan the campaign for Hero Points.


If I go about the campaign character building plan that way. How do I determine the amount of Hero Points that players BEGIN each session with??



By the rules (if I'm correct), ALL players begin play with ONE Hero Die (5 Hero Points) - regardless of Campaign Level. Correct?

Then... the Narrator sets the "campaign level", if a PC is higher/lesser than that point level they get either Setbacks or Hero Points. Correct?

That "campaign level" becomes the default for what they'll get every session?

+1 Hero Die
+/- Hero Points/Setbacks


So... are you suggesting that INSTEAD of having a "campaign level" for determining the Hero Points or Setbacks a player character gets weekly (per issue) is actually better determined by the threat of the issues' story?

So instead of having a "campaign level" you have issue or story arc levels - that determine the number of Hero Points or Setback points a PC gets each issue?


I just get confused at the "formula" in which a Narrator should best use to determine how many Hero Points or Setbacks a PC gets per issue.

I love not SETTING a character point value during character creation to encourage different levels of builds, but it makes it a little confusing for figuring out HPs/Setbacks each issue.

and lastly...
Do ANY Hero Points/Dice or Setbacks/Villain Points "carry over" issue to issue?


Overall, I'd love more Narrator discussion on how folks handle this area. Award them, carry them over, etc...

[BASHMAN]

Yes- but if I wanted to do a Thor / Wasp mash-up, I'd make it a 40 pt game, not a 25 point one! If the Narrator wants to keep things closer to street-level, though, there's nothing wrong with that.

[dugfromthearth]

while we are on the subject - I really like the idea of mixing characters of different point levels. But there i no way a hero point is worth a character point.

+1 effect on a roll is in no way a match for +1x with soak, or basically anything else you can get with 1 point.

I would consider a hero die to be worth a character point.

[BeardedDork]

Absolutely being able to change the outcome of a roll after it has been determined is worth a character point. It is one of the most potent abilities in the game. It is very often the difference between victory and defeat.

sure an extra x1 soak is good, don't get me wrong, but only if you get hit, and your soak wouldn't completely negate the damage without it, where as that hero point comes in way more handy not only on that soak roll if you need it, but on the defense roll to not need the soak roll in the first place, or every single other almost situation you might find your self in. the only way a hero point is not equal to or greater than a character point is when you continually forget to use them.

[BASHMAN]

Also, a Hero Point + Attack Weak Point = Headless Giant Robot

[kevperrine]

Absolutely being able to change the outcome of a roll after it has been determined is worth a character point. It is one of the most potent abilities in the game.

devil's advocate question...

In my (limited) experience my group's games had very few (comparatively) opportunities when a player character could/should spend HERO POINTS to make the difficulty of the attack (or whatever roll).
In most cases (in my experience) with the HIGH "swing" of the multiplier die roll rule system of BASH! that "difference" between the roll and the difficulty number (or contested check number) was WAY ... WAY higher than a player would either WANT to spend in Hero Points and more often way WAY more than any player character HAD in Hero Points to spend.

While I agree that the ability with Hero Points to change the result value to MAKE a success, I've found that THAT option just isn't available as often as it might seem...

That ... OR maybe I'm not giving out enough Hero Points during games.


THAT is another [sidebar] good question, though.
Assuming the group are doing a good job at playing the super HEROES worthy of Hero Points... On average how many Hero Points should a player character get per hour of game play?


Do you have any examples of what deserves Hero Points, and how many? (I recall the old Marvel FASERIP system had a neat little chart for things that award Karma Points and how many)
On that note... (with help here?) I might make up a sample chart for this! hehe, fun fun.

Also, a Hero Point + Attack Weak Point = Headless Giant Robot

Are you serious?
Again... with the note above, I just haven't seen alot of die rolls "close enough" to have this come up and make a difference in games.
Great idea. But how often does this happen with the high "swing" levels of the core rules in folks' games? (anyone?)


always looking for good Narrator suggestions
thanks!
-kev-

[BASHMAN]

As a heart attack. How many times have you rolled over an 11 on the attack roll and rolled less than a 5 for damage? A Hero point + Attack Weak Point means that you can declare the attack roll you just made WAS your damage roll.

So if I have Attack Weak Point, I do x4 Damage, and have x4 to hit. Enemy rolls and gets a 21 Defense. I roll to hit and get three 3s and a 5, for 14 x4 = 56 to hit! Great. Now, I already would be entitled to do x8 Damage; because I hit by more than 20. But I don't want to risk a bad roll- so I spend 1 Hero Point, and declare that lucky 14 I rolled is also my damage roll. 14x8 (112) is a lot better than 7x8 on average (56). It could be the difference between "barely hurting" the giant robot, and completely finishing it off in 1 attack.

Don't forget also that 1 Hero Point = 1/5th of a Hero Die. And that can be CRAZY powerful.

A lower powered dude ONE-SHOTed a different giant robot that the 2 heavy hitters had barely damaged, because he rolled insanely good between his regular roll and a Hero Die. I mean, his DICE ROLL was over 20. On 2d6. Then we multiplied it... and the result was exploding giant robot, saved the day.

My favorite of all was the time I had a "Skilled Normal" type hero in the group along with an Ice Controller. (Why is it always giant robots) Yet another Giant Robot (I really need to diversify my choice of giant monsters) was terrorizing the city. A bunch of the heroes were swarming around, hitting it with all they had, etc, but it was slow going. Now this wasn't only a combat, it was also essentially a timed extended check, because in 3 pages the Robot was going to crush a nearby hospital if it kept moving on its path. It had to be stopped.... NOW.

So the "skilled normal" did a Team-Work action with the ice controller. He hot-wired a tanker-truck, slammed on the gas pedal, and drove up a ramp of ice that the controller made for him. Then, dove out of the truck at the last second (acrobatics specialty to the rescue) as everyone felt the rush of hot-wind and looked away from the gigantic orange fireball that exploded from where the robot's upper body used to be!

[Nestor]

Hate to say it, Dave, but I'm with Kev on this one. In the time I've been mucking with BASH, I have yet to see a single instance where a Hero point would've made any difference. And the one time I had the chance to use a Hero Die, the results were far less than satisfying.

I realize your story sounds great, but I'll answer with; how many times has a situation like that come up? How often, on the average, are Hero points relevant in a game session?

Personally, given a choice between having a Hero point and having a +1x Soak, I'll take the extra Soak. Because the Hero point MAY be useful someday, but the extra Soak will help EVERY time my character gets hit.

[drkrash]

Who's Dave? Anyway.

Part of this also seems to come down to the ethos of the game itself. As counterintuitive as it may seem, because one point IS worth so much in BASH, I've always thought that the tendency to maximize every point took away from the spirit of the game, which is just a little more open to GM adjudication than something like HERO.

So one Hero Point may not be a lot, but it's one closer to getting a Hero Die during a session. And those are more powerful, and, much more importantly, they're really cool and fun.

So I think looking at just the hard numbers may be accurate - but I don't think it's as much fun.

[BeardedDork]

The hero point comes up most often in opposed actions rather than static actions. You can see by looking at the multiplication table how often various combinations of hero points are useful on rolls versus a difficulty.

After the second week of BASH (when most of the players caught on how good they are) I think one person in our group has walked away with remaining hero points maybe twice. We've been doing this weekly game since mid august and we've only completely missed 3 weeks, and have done a fair number of one shots as well. Most often not only does everybody use all their hero points but half the party or so will also push themselves for more.

You can also spend a hero point to cap a roll, preventing the narrator from spending more points on top of what he already has, if you beat the villain by a narrow margin as well.

Pretty much every time the rolls are close it's advisable to spend a hero point.

[Nestor]

Who's Dave? Anyway.

That's what I get for posting before I've had my coffee.

Replace "Dave" with "Chris". Carry on.

[dugfromthearth]

I agree that hero dice are really useful. It is individual hero points used to modify rolls that I do not fight particularly useful.

I had thought it was a hero die used for attack weak point - not a hero point. That would be a great use for a hero point.

[BASHMAN]

Think of Hero Points as "Whiff Insurance". Missing a bad guy (or getting hit) by 1 or 2 is not very fun. That is what Hero Points are for.

They are also great for Priority rolls, when all the bad guys go on 21, and you rolled a 20, you can cut ahead of them all with 1 Hero point. (Note to Narrators: Also a GREAT use for a Setback)

As for "how often they come up" for me it's been Every Session. Not every session is as spectacular as those 3 examples I gave, but there are more examples that I didn't include. Here is one of my other favorites; involving Hero Dice, Never Surrender, Quick-Thinking, Hero Points, and Attack Weak Point.

Picture if you will a game set far, far in the future, where one of the bad guys is a cybernetic giant whose head is a brain in a jar. We'll Call him "Purple Giant". Aside from his strength, he also has a powerful mind blast ability.

Now imagine the team of superheroes. At one extreme, we have a true "Champion of Justice" type. x8 Soak, 5 Brawn, lots of immunities, cape, s-curl, etc. He clocks in at 45 points (in a 45 pt game). At the other extreme, is the Karate Master who clocks in around 25 points.

Early on in the scene, Champion and the other heroes are busy dealing with something else at the other end of the laboratory that the Heroes showed up to save. This pits the Karate Master against the Purple Giant.

Karate Master tries his best, but the Purple Giant beats him. He chokes him, and tosses him aside like a rag-doll, then goes after Champion. While Champion is very strong at resisting physical damage, he has no protection for the Purple Giant's Mind Blast, and it does a number on him! However, just before that moment, the Karate Master; whom everyone saw get taken down; arises (Never Surrender) and says "you... will... Not... Hurt.. MY... FRIENDS!!!" and does an interrupt action (Quick-Thinking) to execute a jump kick, right at the Purple Giant's dome.

The Purple Giant is completely unprepared for this attack, and gets a very poor Defense. Karate Master hit by more than 20, and his attack roll was already pretty high. He decides to drop a Hero Point on it (Attack Weak Point) AND Throws a Hero Die on the damage roll. The Purple Giant, who had heretofore taken no damage at all, has the brain-dome SHATTER, and crashes to the ground like a statue (he took over 160 damage from that one attack).

Without the Hero Point, spent on Attack Weak Point, that whole thing could have been utterly pointless; as he rolls this amazing hit roll, then rolls a mediocre damage roll which the Purple Giant ignores.

Hero Points are for seizing opportunities. You need to pick your moment to use them.

Now if you think that 1 Hero Point isn't worth a character point, RAW covers that too, because in the "Bronze Age" section of Chapter 5, there is a part called "Against All Odds" that explains why you may want to give DOUBLE Hero Points, if the teams are going to be especially diverse in Character Point values.

As for "but is still isn't worth +1 to soak" the answer is, probably not. But I don't build characters to be the maximum effectiveness. I build them to model the Hero I want to play. I don't give them the highest soak they CAN have. I give them the soak I think they SHOULD have for the concept I'm building. If I only cared about efficiency of character building, I could build character designed to SLAUGHTER their opponents; even those with more CPs, but I don't do that because that is precisely the kind of playing that I wanted to get away from. To me, it's not all about efficiency.