if I were revising BASH ...

[BASHMAN]

Weapons - I want to charge a WWII super soldier who picks up a rifle and has a 5x Dmg attack points for it, when the fiery crusader next to him has to pay points for his 5x damage attack. The rifle can be taken away or destroyed - that's already covered by the gadget limitation. No reason to give one guy a free power just because they chose the concept "rifle" over "fireball".

Note- I'm not trying to be combative here- I just want to explain what was going through my head when I made those design choices. Likewise, I'm not offended by your own point of view- it's just not my design philosophy- fair enough?
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How many points should a cell phone cost? It's essentially allowing someone to instantly communicate with someone at a distance like Telapathy. What about a 1993 VW Jetta? How many character points should someone pay for that?

HERO system was the first supers game I played, and the fact that the group I played with had hard and fast answers to those questions really irked me. My regular car and ordinary camera cost so many character points that my first character had no super powers. It was only later on in the campaign that I learned that if you want to have enough points for super powers, the key is to not ever drive a car. All of the other PCs had flight or swinging, etc- and no car. The camera was also super expensive (they made me pay for eidetic memory [an insanely expensive power] w/ a gadget limitation).

That concept- that even "ordinary stuff" cost character points never set well with me. Needless to say, one of my intentional design goals was "don't make people pay character points for having a regular camera, or a car, a gun, etc". A super car that turns into a jet- or a camera that can take X-Ray photos- sure that's fine- but never make someone pay points for "ordinary" stuff.

Now- a sniper rifle IS NOT "ordinary stuff" you can just walk around with in a normal campaign. Unless your character has Police Powers, or something like that, you cannot have a weapon like that. In a war scenario- sure you can have them. And so will the enemies.

Regarding the WWII character- your rifle fires one shot that does x4 damage to one target at range 40 (x5 Dmg if it is a sniper rifle). The Fireball doing x5 Dmg- What size burst is that affecting? A Medium Burst hits 25 squares, vs. 1 with the rifle. Let's say it was an assault rifle. You do x4 dmg, w/ 10 Ammo. If you do a full auto spray, you hit a small burst- and use up half your ammo. So that's 4 targets at x4 dmg that you can do twice/3 pages vs. x5 Dmg to 25 targets you can do till the cows come home.

Also, the guy with the rifle cannot "Push" the damage on his rifle shot- and spend Hero Points (or take some damage) to increase his damage multiplier for that attack- while the guy with the Fireball power could.

Now if you want a guy who has a SPECIAL rifle- you can buy that as a gadget power. Then you can have it do whatever damage you want it to do (well over x5). Make it armor piercing and ricochet electric bullets around corners if you want. Powers are something you get to design however you want. Weapons are simply tools that function by specific rules.

You can choose to design your powers to be better than those tools- but it should still be an option for you to design the power to be weaker than that.

Yes, it is possible that people with powers will be worse off than someone with a gun. Jubilee needs to be able to exist in the campaign world.

I'm not trying to change your mind- I just want you to get a feel for why I made it the way I did.

[BASHMAN]

Weapons - I want to charge a WWII super soldier who picks up a rifle and has a 5x Dmg attack points for it, when the fiery crusader next to him has to pay points for his 5x damage attack. The rifle can be taken away or destroyed - that's already covered by the gadget limitation. No reason to give one guy a free power just because they chose the concept "rifle" over "fireball".

Back on this- If you want to- you can of course design all those different weapons as powers. Here's how:

Take the DM of the weapon and subtract 2 (since Mind doesn't add to the damage, like a Power would). That is the base level of "Special Attack" it has.

Next, look at the range:
5 = Close = 1pt
10 = Medium = 2pts
20 = Long =3pts
40 = Extreme = 4pts

Subtract 1 for Limitations [guns have built in Easily Taken and Ammo gadget- but the ammount of ammo is based on the kind of gun].

So an ordinary pistol (x2 Dmg, Range 10, Ammo 6) would cost: 0+2-1 = 1pt. That's IF you want to charge points for them. A Rifle would cost: 2+4-1 = 5pts

[Nestor]

Just wanted to jump in to say, Chris, I feel your pain.

As a long-time Champions/Hero player, the whole "pay points for everything" paradigm was one of my bugaboos about the system. I once had a lengthy "discussion" with a GM who insisted I had to pay points for the flashlight that I wanted my super-cop character to carry just because it's standard equipment for a police officer. And let's not even start with the build for handcuffs.

So I'm with you there. I'm still unsure about the "Stat 1 is normal" concept, though. I still don't see how I can build a normal with average intelligence but strong willpower (Boost and Mind Shield are powers and therefore out of reach for someone with the Normal Disadvantage, and Never Surrender is a one-shot thing).

Perhaps a 1 pt. Intense Training power, called say Iron Will, that gives a +2 Mind for resisting mental attacks, giving normals access to the ability.

[dugfromthearth]

I understand the idea of not wanting to make people pay points for everything. You want to carry a flashlight - normal people carry flashlights so why pay for it?

Because normal superheroes do not carry flashlights. The Thing does not carry a backpack with every imaginable device in it - he is strong enough to, it just isn't what superheroes do.

Superheroes often do normal things in cool ways. Instead of shooting a gun they fire energy beams out of their eyes. Instead of wearing body armor they have rock hard skin. Instead of calling on a cellphone they use mental powers.

What that means is that if someone decides to play a guy with a rifle, body armor, and cellphone and another player wants to play a guy with rockhard skin, energy beam eyes, and telepathy - the second guy is not paying for his powers really, he is paying for his concept.

For me it is a genre question. Playing Fantasy - sure you just buy a sword. Playing Sci-Fi - sure you just buy a jetpack. But superheroes are different.

Now from a system perspective this isn't necessarily a problem. As you point out you can build the stuff with points. So it is easy enough to make it a rule in a campaign that players pay for things.

[Nestor]

To each their own, Dug. If you want to saddle the players with having to buy everything, go ahead. It's your game, your call.

Personally, I don't believe that everything in the game is (or should be) translated into points, regardless of genre. A cop shouldn't have to pay points for carrying a flashlight and handcuffs, a doctor shouldn't for having a mdecial bag, or a reporter for owning a cell phone. It's just common sense.

[BASHMAN]

Just wanted to jump in to say, Chris, I feel your pain.

As a long-time Champions/Hero player, the whole "pay points for everything" paradigm was one of my bugaboos about the system. I once had a lengthy "discussion" with a GM who insisted I had to pay points for the flashlight that I wanted my super-cop character to carry just because it's standard equipment for a police officer. And let's not even start with the build for handcuffs.

So I'm with you there. I'm still unsure about the "Stat 1 is normal" concept, though. I still don't see how I can build a normal with average intelligence but strong willpower (Boost and Mind Shield are powers and therefore out of reach for someone with the Normal Disadvantage, and Never Surrender is a one-shot thing).

Perhaps a 1 pt. Intense Training power, called say Iron Will, that gives a +2 Mind for resisting mental attacks, giving normals access to the ability.

Sounds good to me.

[BASHMAN]

What that means is that if someone decides to play a guy with a rifle, body armor, and cellphone and another player wants to play a guy with rockhard skin, energy beam eyes, and telepathy - the second guy is not paying for his powers really, he is paying for his concept.

Actually, the body armor does count as a power you have to pay for. All the builds I've made that feature Kevlar for instance, treat it as a power, which they had to pay points for.

The Cell Phone? I'd just let them have it. It's a common standard thing in the US to have one- unless you are Destitute- the whole point of that disadvantage is that you can't have things like that.

The Rifle- You don't just walk down the street carrying a rifle, either. If you're police, or a government agent, etc- you take the Police Powers advantage to have that. Otherwise, 2nd Amendment or no, you're going to be treated with suspicion or fear- and the police will likely find a reason to arrest you (disturbing the peace by scaring the crap out of people brandishing a rifle). If it's a WWII campaign- then EVERYONE would have a rifle. If you have eyebeams, you might decide not to carry one- but you are allowed to have that too (what if something is immune to your eyebeams- you may wish you HAD taken the rifle).
Also, the Eyebeams are likely MUCH BETTER than the Rifle. That rifle has Ammo 1. That means every other page, instead of attacking, he's loading. Eyebeams can keep shooting all day. The Rifle only does x4 Dmg- the Eyebeams can do WAY more than that- and if that's your character's main schtick you should build his eyebeams to be more impressive than a rifle.
The eyebeam guy can use it to for other things- like cut a big circular hole in the side of a wall for the team to escape the death trap- the rifle can just put a small hole in the wall. It's really only good for shooting people- or using as an improvised club. A strong enough brick can get the same effect with some rubble that is laying around.

The guy w/ Rock Hard skin (Armor 3) and energy beams (Special Attack 5 [Variable]) and telepathy (Telepath 3)- however- is far better off than the normal guy with the body armor (Armor 1), rifle (x4 Dmg, Range 40, 1 Ammo), and Cell phone.

The cell phone can only be used to call other phones - and if nobody picks up the phone, it does no good. The guy w/ Telepathy can talk to you- even if you don't want to "answer". He knows what you're thinking, even if you're unwilling to say it. He could even add enhancments to his telepathy to communicate with Dogs or Computers.