Gadgeteering?

[AslanC]

I would like to get some clarification on this whole thing.

Character X has the Gadgeteering advantage, how does he use it? Where does the original piece of equipment he uses to modify/change come from? How does he build an all new gadget?

Thanks in advance.

[BeardedDork]

My understanding is that the advantage allows you to trade in one of your powers for a different one. A little bit like Grimoire only with gadget powers rather than magic powers.

In Batman versus Predator Batman initially looses in a big way deciding many of the things he is carrying are useless against this new threat he goes back to the bat cave and builds a new suit of armor that doesn't have all the functionality of his previous gadgets but it makes him much more durable. Then he goes back out and tries again.

[AslanC]

Sure, that works for Batman, but what about Reed Richards? He wouldn't start with any gadgets, so how would be build one during play? Also after he built the Ultimate Nulifier for example, he didn't cannibalize it for other projects.

That's more what I am trying to find out, how does one build a new gadget from scratch.

[BeardedDork]

one doesn't, unless they manage to gain some more character points some how. The gadgeteer advantage only gives flexibility it does not as far as I can tell give any more points to play with..

[urbwar]

Aslan,

I'd say that Reed Richards has a pool of unused points that he saves for making gadgets (so if he was in the 40 point total range, but only spent 35, the other 5 is reserved for a gadget pool, thus bringing him up to 40 points). Sure that doesn't fit exactly, but it should work well enough in game.

I think something along the lines of a "Gadget Pool" ability (like Champions has had) would be a good power to have in BASH.

And to be honest (and a bit tangential), the Ultimate Nullifier is more of a plot device than an actual gadget (seeing as how he's never actually used it, and other than an issue of What If?, we don't know for sure it really works as advertised )

[AslanC]

Wasn't it used against Storm? I thought it was. I could be wrong.

The idea of the character having "left over" points seems a bit off to me as well.

Maybe there could be a power called "Hyper-Inventing" or somesuch that acts like a Special Attack? Or a pocket Omnipotence?

[urbwar]

Wasn't it used against Storm? I thought it was. I could be wrong.

iirc, that was Forge's neutralizer, which took away her powers. The Nullifier, if going by an issue of What If? is correct, will kill Galactus, but also kill whomever uses it.

The idea of the character having "left over" points seems a bit off to me as well.

Well, I wouldn't call it "left over". I'd list it as something like "Gadget Points", or some such. My example was to show that by putting those unused points into such a pool, brings their point total up, since the points are active, whether they are in a gadget or not at the time.

Maybe there could be a power called "Hyper-Inventing" or somesuch that acts like a Special Attack? Or a pocket Omnipotence?

I don't see why "Gadget Pool" wouldn't suffice, since it would require Gadgeteering to use anyway

A Gadget pool would work similar to Omnipotence, except that it requires having the Gadgeteer advantage, as well as appropriate science/technology skills to develop and build.

I'd also require the character to have some gadgets they tend to use more frequently statted out, and they can tell the GM beforehand if they are using any of them at that time.

[BeardedDork]

I've considered it and the answer is conjuration you would be able to use an assortment of previously "built" gadgets and if you needed would be able to take those conjuration points and build a new power out of them.

Edit: The Ultimate Nullifier, is just a McGuffin it's never been used for anything other than a threat.

[urbwar]

I've considered it and the answer is conjuration you would be able to use an assortment of previously "built" gadgets and if you needed would be able to take those conjuration points and build a new power out of them.

I'd considered that, but I think Conjuration would still need a few tweaks. Hmmm, Gadget pool cold be an alternate power to that though, rather than it's own ability. Don't know what I didn't consider that earlier.

Now I need to ponder how to write it up properly

[Lindharin]

I'm a little unhappy (or at least confused) about Gadgeteer and Grimoire myself. If you compare them to Versatile, I don't see their appeal. It requires skill rolls to use them, and presumably both time and tools (Grimiore suggests an hour, Gadgeteer doesn't say). If successful, you give up your existing power to get a new one for one issue.

Compare that to Versatile, which allows you one free power stunt. I don't see anything that says you give up the original power when stunting, so I think you can use both the original and the new temporary power. You don't need to make any rolls, and you can do it at a moment's notice. However, a stunt only lasts for one scene instead of an entire issue (although we frequently only have one or maybe two scenes per issue anyway), and a stunt is generally more tied to the original power. With Gadgeteer you could make mind reading helmet one day and a pair of Nullifying handcuffs the next, without needing to justify how both of those come from one of your normal powers, but you still need to give up one of your powers to get it.

So, Gadgeteer/Grimoire do give some nice benefits compared to Versatile, but I think the limitations are severe, and don't fit all characters that conceptually seem like they should have those advantages (like the Reed Richards example).

I've toyed with making Gadgeteer/Grimoire a power, with 1-5 levels (maybe more? 1-10?), instead of an advantage. You could change how those power levels are allocated at the start of each issue for free, or in the middle of an issue (either for free if they have time and make a science/occult roll, or immediately by spending a hero die like a stunt). It is sort of like Omnipotence, but at a 1-for-1 price instead of 1-for-5 price because the powers have to be pre-determined each issue and cannot be changed each page at will.

I haven't tried this yet, though. For the moment, the one PC who has Gadgeteer has just traded it in for Versatile instead; it fits what he wants better.

[BeardedDork]

Hmm, I think Gadgeteer simulates the things we see in Gadget hero comics very elegantly. So often we see the likes of Iron Man, or Batman make a modification to their standard array of equipment at the obvious expense of some other piece of equipment to better specialize for the task at hand. Then next issue everything is right back the way it was and the modification is often never seen again.

I think if you want a more Reed Richards type character who's tinkering is separate from the bulk of their power suite, and who is not, in general, a gadget powered character, a high level of conjuring with some sort of limitation like (must be something they could build) also works very well.

[BASHMAN]

An easy way to do inventions other than with gadgeteer:

Conjuring [Extra Time]. This takes the place of a gadget pool.

Power Stunt

[gryfn]

It occurs to me he might use a hero die to make a short term gadget , maybe combined with a skill roll somehow

maybe you make your skill-roll and divide the result by 10
and then get that many points in a device for a few uses

or better yet tie it to the extended check rules , and let his mind and skill investment help aquire for the gadget

[BASHMAN]

You could power stunt w/ a Hero Die (or Versatile) to "just happen to have" your new prototype sonic wave gun in your utility belt as well.

[CapnHowdy]

So, if I wanted to make an inventor type character who always has "the right tool for the job" (back in M&M this was a variable power pool), I could just take Conjuring X?

What if some of the things he wanted to produce on a moment's notice were:

- a blaster pistol
- an EMP device
- a lockpicking/computer hacking device
- jet boots
- etc.?

ie, what if the main items he wanted to "conjure" are devices that give him temporary powers? What level of Conjuring do I need?