Dragonfly's House Rules: NEW POWER: HEIGHTENED!

[Lindharin]

Hmmm...this is where we might have different design philosophies. The archetype is the archetype. It should cost as much as it needs to in order to model what it does in the comics. The final cost is somewhat unimportant, as far as I'm concerned.

Hmm. Okay, I see where you are coming from there, and I agree with that, when approaching them as examples of how the system works. That's half of what the archetypes are there for - here's how this system could represent a character we all know and recognize. For that purpose, point totals are less important.

But the archetypes have a second purpose as potential player characters, and for an exercise like this where we're looking at the effect of a house rule, they give us a wide range of sample characters that we're both familiar with, any one of which could be a player character. Which leads to...

I agree with you on most of this. Again, I'm just less concerned about who gets how many points extra - at least when it comes to these archetypes, which are really homages of existing characters. How would these affect actual play in a homegrown campaign?

I am making the assumption that looking at how it affects the archetypes is going to mirror how it affects custom characters. My players don't actually play the archetypes, but in broad ways there are similarities. Some have high stat totals, while others are basically normals with powers tacked on. The ones with lower stats have more powers, and often have more utility powers than the high stat characters, etc. In that sense, the archetypes make a convenient test bed that we're all familiar with and can look at.

It would certainly be more precise for you to do this exercise with your players' characters, and me with mine, but it would be much harder for us to discuss it because we're not familiar with each others' stable of characters.

What matters to me at that point is that PCs get what they pay for (to a certain degree), regardless of whether it's a Stat or a power. I don't want to reward a character in terms of combat effectiveness just because his or her concept is Stat heavy. They shouldn't get a cost break for the effects they are buying, and I suspect that 3 pts. for Stats will make things more equitable, without sacrificing the system's ability to model the genre AND without making the game as complicated as those other systems.

My hope was that looking at a comparison of high stat vs. low stat characters would reveal if there is actually an inherent combat effectiveness benefit for high stats, and I'm not convinced of that yet.

But putting that aside, I definitely see the appeal that if X, Y and Z all cost 1 pt then something which gives you X+Y+Z should cost 3 pts. I don't know if it is totally valid when it comes to game balance/character effectiveness (due to that whole argument of diminishing returns, which leads to multipowers, etc.), but I'll try to focus on looking at this aspect of it.

This argument works best on me for Agility. It seems like Agility is probably the most prevalent/used stat - ranged and melee defense, ranged and melee attacks, avoiding bursts, priority, skills, etc.

Mind is a little less clear, since it applies to damage (but only for ranged), and Mental Defense is already established at a rate of 2 per 1 pt. But it also has mental attacks, and the "Mind Effects" are more prevalent than even Agility's - more skills, plus critical things like awareness, recall, etc. And despite the 2-for-1 rate on Mind Shield, this stat represents the only defense against a significant minority of powers that can really ruin your day. Mathematically, if Agility feels like 1+1+1=3, then Mind feels more like 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 3.

Brawn is the least "mathematically" valuable stat, I think. It applies only to melee damage, it has no skills, and lifting weights is occasionally useful but how often is it critical even in comics? Once an issue? Once every few issues? It is used as a special effect for representing their ability to inflict damage far, far more often than it is used as a unique story asset in its own right.

And you have the issue of Telekinesis that counts for both damage and lifting, at range, for 1 pt per level. Would you plan on changing it's price if you increase Brawn to 3 pts/level?

Could an argument be made that Brawn might still cost 2/level, and Agility and Mind cost 3?

[Dragonfly]

Howdy!

Could an argument be made that Brawn might still cost 2/level, and Agility and Mind cost 3?

Yep! I've been flirting with this myself, but am shying away for admittedly pretty lame reasons - mostly that the OCD in me hates it when Stats have different costs from one another.

That being said, there are a few other things to consider. Lifting a weight isn't always useful in the comics, but bending or breaking things can be thrown into the mix to make it more versatile. Bending the I-Beam to wrap around your captured foe, hurling the bomb away before it blows up the building/town/city, determining how many teammates or rescued "normals" you can carry with you, etc. Strength also affects a slew of other things, like jumping distance, and resistance to knockback, AND it allows you to break out of immobilize attacks (which can be annoyingly hindering to a PC). Oh, and the Damage it affects isn't exactly only in hand to hand - the range is limited only by what you have to throw, and if you are strong enough and pick up a bus you suddenly have an Area attack for free. In short, there are fewer specified applications, but Brawn is a flexible enough stat to find MANY applications. I'm wondering if (OCD aside) a case can be made for 1+1+.25+.25+.25+.25.

You ask a few other questions, like whether I would consider changing the cost of TK. The fact is that once I've made a decision on the cost of Stats, I'll probably go and look at all other powers with an eye for the same type of balance. I don't imagine MANY of them will change, but I imagine some of them will, and TK might be one of those. I'm tempted to say that it would probably become a 2-6 point power, rather than a 1-5 point power (an aspect of Brawn + the Range Enhancement), but I have to consider it more carefully.

Best,

Dragonfly

[BeardedDork]

This sounds like it will mainly have the consequence of turning the simplest and most elegant character creation process I am aware of into an exercise in number crunching and shuffling and the end result will be more or less the same.
This is a good example of why my default stance on house-rules is that they detract more than they add.

[Dragonfly]

This sounds like it will mainly have the consequence of turning the simplest and most elegant character creation process I am aware of into an exercise in number crunching and shuffling and the end result will be more or less the same.
This is a good example of why my default stance on house-rules is that they detract more than they add.

Hmm...I don't see how that's the case. The only number crunching occuring here is in the design of the house rules. The actual implementation would involve no more number crunching than usual, and no less. The only difference would be the actual numbers that are being added or subtracted, and I don't find it any harder or easier to work with 2's than I do to work with 3's. Working with one is no more elegant than working with the other. As for the end result being more or less the same? Maybe, but maybe not. That's one of the things being investigated here.

I can understand how you might not be interested in the house rule, but I'm a bit of a tinkerer and like to fiddle with systems, so this is kind of fun for me to toy around with. Please understand that this is in no way a bash of BASH. Like you, I'm a big fan of the system. The fact that I'm spending so much of my free time this summer playing around with it is a testament to my love for the game and my admiration for BASHMAN's creation. That being said, nothing is ever perfect, everything can potentially be improved, and, more importantly for this thread, nothing is every perfect for all styles of play, and we should always feel empowered to modify systems for our unique styles of play.

My reason for sharing my thoughts on this board are twofold:

1) I like the benefit of sounding boards.

2) I like to share.

Best,

Dragonfly

[Dragonfly]

Howdy folks!

The following is an article I wrote for BAM!. I asked BASHMAN if I could present it here even though it might soon appear in virtual print, and he gave me the thumbs up. This introduces a new Intensive Training power, so I guess it counts as a house rule for now. I'm presenting the article pretty much as I initially submitted it. BASHMAN suggested simplifying the power a bit (by making the bonus a flat +3 RB to a specific Stat rather than allowing the player to spread it among several Stats). I haven't made that change to the article yet (mostly out of laziness), but I've taken BASHMAN's advice in my own games, just to keep things simpler as my players learn the system. The one modification I did make to the article presented here is the name of the power. I originally called it "Well-Conditioned," but BASHMAN recommended "Heightened," which I prefer. Anyway, without further ado, here is the article:

The Particulars of Being a Superhero

“BASH lacks granularity.” That’s the first complaint my gaming group levied against what has now become my favorite superhero RPG. Indeed, after a few months of play it is the only actual concern that some of my players continue to have about the system. More alarmingly, it is this aspect of the game that caused me to initially dismiss it upon running across its first edition a couple of years ago. Although I am now a convert who genuinely believes that BASH works fine as is, I also see the wisdom of crafting optional rules that might accommodate different styles of play and therefore broaden the appeal of this already fun and versatile system. Toward that end I propose Heightened – a new Intensive Training power that slightly changes the way Stats work. The following article will also briefly consider the pros and cons of introducing Heightened into your games.

Before presenting Heightened, I should probably give a more detailed explanation of what is meant by “a lack of granularity.” In this case granularity has nothing to do with crunchy and nutritious breakfast cereals, sand, or any other mass composed of individual particles. Instead, what my buddies are complaining about is that BASH gives us no way to differentiate degrees of aptitude within the multiplier categories that make-up its very broadly defined Stats benchmarks. Brawn 2, for instance, is “pro football player” strength and toughness. This is also the Brawn rating for the Archer and Weapon Master archetypes. While some players are happy with Stats being presented in such broad brushstrokes, others want more gradations within categories. They want to be able to distinguish between the pro football player and the Olympic weightlifter. They also want to be able to differentiate the hum-dinging, patriotic shield-slinger whose physique is at the peak of human perfection from the very well-trained, but not quite as impressive, wise-cracking, purple-clad archer. Such players also have similar issues with Stats at the higher end of the benchmark spectrum. Gods of thunder and radioactively induced monstrosities, they argue, belong in the same Brawn 5 weight-class, but there ought to be a way of giving the edge to the gamma-charged goliath. Heightened does just that.

Heightened
1-3 pts; Personal
You have trained to improve your physical and/or mental abilities. Each level in this power gives you a +3 Result Bonus to spread among your Stats. You may assign the +3 to one Stat, or you may split the bonus between several Stats. No one Stat may have more than a +3 Result Bonus as a consequence of this power. This Result Bonus adds to any check involving the improved Stat, including (but not limited to) Damage, Defense, Mental Defense, Priority and Soak. The result bonus does not affect calculations dependent solely on a straight multiplier, such as movement.

Example: Mike is designing his Golden Age character, the Blue Flame. He assigns the following Stats to his superhero: Brawn 1, Agility 1, Mind 2. Although the Blue Flame is not a professional athlete, Mike envisions the azure avenger being a bit stronger, tougher, and faster than the average Joe. He also envisions him being especially strong-willed. Mike, therefore, purchases 2 levels of Well-Conditioned for the Blue Flame, for a total Result Bonus of +6 to spread among his Stats. Remembering that the maximum he can assign to any one Stat is +3, he distributes the Result Bonus as follows: Brawn x1+2, Agility x1+1, Mind x2+3. Blue Flame’s Brawn x1+2 adds to his Force Field power (Armor 3) for a total Soak of x4+2. He also has a Flame Bolt power (Special Attack 5, mid range, +1 Hit, +2 Damage). His Agility x1+1 is used to determine his chance to hit with the Flame Bolt, for a total of x2+1, while his Mind x2+3 is used to determine his damage with the attack, for a total of x4+3. Result Bonuses, however, don’t figure into calculating Movement, so the Blue Flame’s Run is determined as if he had an Agility 1. Good thing he can fly!

What are the game-play implications of introducing Heightened into your BASH game? In many respects, they are remarkably slim. Heightened aims at providing more nuanced Stats in BASH without actually changing anything about the system. The most obvious change is mostly cosmetic and relates to the way that Stats are recorded. As noted in the example above, Stats are traditionally represented by a simple number ranging from 1 – 5. Although this number is a Multiplier, this is assumed and the “x” that denotes it as such is customarily dropped. One would normally, for example, write Brawn 3 as opposed to Brawn x3. Because the Result Bonuses granted by Heightened are permanent modifications to the affected Stats, however, these should be recorded on the Stat block. In order to avoid confusion between Multipliers and Result Bonuses, all Stats should probably include the “x” as a matter of course. A Brawn 5, Agility 2, Mind 2 character, for instance, should probably have his Stats recorded as Brawn x5, Agility x2, Mind x2.

Another obvious implication is complexity. While Heightened shouldn’t be too cumbersome to implement, it does add another level of calculation that some folks might find tedious, unnecessary, inelegant, or otherwise detrimental to the flow of the game. This might be particularly true for new players, who have yet to get used to the difference between Dice Bonuses, Multipliers, and Result Bonuses.

In short, Heightened is presented as an option for players and GMs who might like a little more distinction between characters in their superhero games. It is also an option that might have even more appeal in other genres, where character Stats are more tightly grouped in the lower ranges. If used, it should provide players with interesting character options. Whether Heightened is used should be left entirely to the discretion of the Narrator.

[Heroglyph]

I like the Heightened house rule.
A couple of comments:

Seems like instead of making it a separate power, you could just make it part of the character building process when buying stats, since a heightened stat would cost 1 character point extra. It all works out the same in the end point wise, but some people may not like saying that the incredible Bulk must have an intensive training power to represent him being stronger than Thundergod.

Maybe it could just be an Enhancement to a stat? Semantics, I know. But, I don't see the Bulk as needing to work out to gain that extra strength.

You also mentioned about how to represent it on a character sheet to avoid confusion. Assuming you are going to go with a flat +3 RB, couldn't you just add a + sign after the stat? This would denote the flat +3

Such as:
0
0+
1
1+
2
2+
etc, etc.

Very cool idea though, I will likely adopt it if I ever run a BASH game myself.

[Dragonfly]

Howdy Heiroglyph,

I'm glad you liked Heightened, and thanks for the feedback. The original version I presented to BASHMAN was pretty much what you suggest in terms of folding into the Stat purchasing process rather than making it into a power. He recommended that it be a new power, which makes sense in that new powers seem like additions to, rather than modifications of, the system. (I'm not sure that this was his reasoning, btw. I'm just saying that it makes sense to me in that way).

Your suggestion for how to note the bonus on the character sheet would certainly work. However, I know that some of my system challenged players would forget what the + meant if not followed by a number. That's just the way some of them roll.

Best,

Dragonfly

[Dragonfly]

Hey gang!

Last time I was here I was contemplating all sorts of rules modifications (like increasing the cost of Statistics, etc.). I decided all of this is a waste of time, as BASH UE is pretty much good as is. The only thing I’m keeping is my Heightened power I helped develop, as that is more of an addition than a modification.

That being said, I struggled for awhile with the fact that MIND is such an inclusive Stat. I can see Mister Fantastic having a Mind 4 for intellect related things, but I can’t see him with a Mind 4 when it comes to interaction skills and other Mind related feats. The way I was handling that before was by building such characters with a lower Mind and then boosting it for Intellect related purposes. So, Mr. Fantastic might have a Mind 2, with a Boost 2 (Mind - Only for Intellect Related Actions).

I’ve decided that it might be better to go the other way. Mister Fantastic could have a Mind 4 limited through Disadvantages. Mr. Fantastic, for instance, might have a drawback called Socially Awkward, which subtracts -2 from Mind checks for with social situations. That puts him in the normal human range, and explains why he isn’t always as sensitive as he could be to Sue’s feelings, etc. I guess the Normal Disadvantage could also be used here. You could just specify that his Mind is normal for all things unrelated to sheer Intellect.

What do you guys think? How would you handle this?

Best,

Dragonfly

[Lindharin]

I hadn't really given it much thought, I guess partially because that can be explained through role playing as much as via a game mechanic.

But in terms of game mechanics, how about using Susceptible to Social Situations, giving a -3 dice penalty on social-based Mind rolls?

Susceptible is kind of like Extra Effect in the enhancements list, they both have some language that leaves them very open ended: "the player and the narrator can work out the details" and "Usually these problems are in the form of a -3 penalty..." (which implies other possible implementations too).

[Dragonfly]

I hadn't really given it much thought, I guess partially because that can be explained through role playing as much as via a game mechanic.

But in terms of game mechanics, how about using Susceptible to Social Situations, giving a -3 dice penalty on social-based Mind rolls?

Susceptible is kind of like Extra Effect in the enhancements list, they both have some language that leaves them very open ended: "the player and the narrator can work out the details" and "Usually these problems are in the form of a -3 penalty..." (which implies other possible implementations too).

That's certainly an option. Depending on the character, the -3 Dice Penalty might not be enough, though.

BTW, I hear you on the role-playing dimension of this issue. It becomes more significant mechanically, however, when dealing with other aspects of the Mind Stat. For instance, Reed is a whiz when it comes to science, technology, inventing and logic. I don’t, however, see him Mind 4’s worth resistant to Professor Xavier’s Mind Control. Actually, recent interpretations of the character suggest that he IS somewhat resistant to such mental effects due to his “elastic mind” – but the point still stands when you consider characters like Tony Stark or Hank Pym, both of which might have a Mind 3 or so.

Best,

Dragonfly

[Lindharin]

That's certainly an option. Depending on the character, the -3 Dice Penalty might not be enough, though.

You mentioned a -2 multiplier penalty. A -3 dice penalty is not exactly the same, but it is fairly close to a -2 multiplier for high stats like a 4 or 5. An average roll is 7 (not counting doubles, which I'm too tired to try to take into account tonight). With a -3 dice penalty, that makes the average roll a 4. 4x4=16, and 5x4=20. A -2 multiplier penalty would turn that into a (4-2)x7=14 and (5-2)x7=21, respectively. So a 16 vs a 14 for a x4 stat, and a 20 vs a 21 for a x5 stat. Fairly close, in my book, BUT doubles may skew that. And for a stat of 3, the -3 dice penalty is less of a penalty than a -2 multiplier (but more than a -1 multiplier).

That may or may not be close enough for what you are looking for. If you prefer a new disadvantage with a -2 multiplier penalty instead, that certainly works - after all, the same argument can be made that a -2 multiplier penalty is "close" to the existing penalty of a disadvantage, so that argues it would be balanced. It just comes down to whether the existing one feels right, or you'd prefer to add a new one.

but the point still stands when you consider characters like Tony Stark or Hank Pym, both of which might have a Mind 3 or so.

The nice thing about handling this with a disadvantage is that it leaves it in the hands of the character's creator to decide whether it is an appropriate disadvantage to take for that character. I personally wouldn't have a problem with Tony Stark having a 3 mental defense, but that just means when I make my version of Tony Stark I wouldn't take the disadvantage, while you might when you make your version. (I'm less clear about Hank Pym, I don't know him as well, other than he did have a period of mental instability that could be represented as a Weak Willed or some such).

In that sense, the disadvantage approach you're suggesting would have much less system-wide impact than changing the cost of stats, or separating out mental defense into its own trait not based on Mind, etc. It avoids the problem of "nerfing" existing characters, because if someone wants Tony Stark to have his full 3 mental defense, they don't have to "pay extra" just to end up with the same game effect as the default rules. Instead, you just get a discount on your version, but it comes with a corresponding decrease in effectiveness. It seems balanced, and only affects the characters who want it. Personally, I like that type of house rule!

If you are looking at a new disadvantage like "Weak Willed", then I agree with you that existing elements of the game would support a -2 multiplier penalty (or equivalent). We know that 1 point of Mind Shield is worth 2 mental defense, and the alternate rule for "buying" advantages/disadvantages says that most disadvantages would cost 1 pt each. Assuming that rule of thumb works in this case, then it seems appropriate that a disadvantage could impose a -2 multiplier on the character's mental defense.

[Dragonfly]

Howdy Lindharin!

Thanks for the reply.

1) You and I are on the same page on the Disadvantage option in terms of how it would work. My reasoning behind it is exactly as you describe it.

2) The -3 Dice Penalty makes TOTAL sense as well. I had a brain fart and was thinking -3 RESULT penalty before, which is why I said it might not be enough in some cases.

As always - thanks for the feedback. You are a great sounding board, sir!

Best,

Dragonfly

[MrJupiter]

Hey gang!

Last time I was here I was contemplating all sorts of rules modifications (like increasing the cost of Statistics, etc.). I decided all of this is a waste of time, as BASH UE is pretty much good as is. The only thing I’m keeping is my Heightened power I helped develop, as that is more of an addition than a modification.

That being said, I struggled for awhile with the fact that MIND is such an inclusive Stat. I can see Mister Fantastic having a Mind 4 for intellect related things, but I can’t see him with a Mind 4 when it comes to interaction skills and other Mind related feats. The way I was handling that before was by building such characters with a lower Mind and then boosting it for Intellect related purposes. So, Mr. Fantastic might have a Mind 2, with a Boost 2 (Mind - Only for Intellect Related Actions).

I’ve decided that it might be better to go the other way. Mister Fantastic could have a Mind 4 limited through Disadvantages. Mr. Fantastic, for instance, might have a drawback called Socially Awkward, which subtracts -2 from Mind checks for with social situations. That puts him in the normal human range, and explains why he isn’t always as sensitive as he could be to Sue’s feelings, etc. I guess the Normal Disadvantage could also be used here. You could just specify that his Mind is normal for all things unrelated to sheer Intellect.

What do you guys think? How would you handle this?

Best,

Dragonfly

Geez. What a great idea!

[Dragonfly]

Thanks, Mr. Jupiter!

[MrJupiter]

I like the Heightened house rule.
A couple of comments:

Seems like instead of making it a separate power, you could just make it part of the character building process when buying stats, since a heightened stat would cost 1 character point extra. It all works out the same in the end point wise, but some people may not like saying that the incredible Bulk must have an intensive training power to represent him being stronger than Thundergod.

Maybe it could just be an Enhancement to a stat? Semantics, I know. But, I don't see the Bulk as needing to work out to gain that extra strength.

You also mentioned about how to represent it on a character sheet to avoid confusion. Assuming you are going to go with a flat +3 RB, couldn't you just add a + sign after the stat? This would denote the flat +3

Such as:
0
0+
1
1+
2
2+
etc, etc.

Very cool idea though, I will likely adopt it if I ever run a BASH game myself.

When I first had picked up BASH (the 1st edition) I had worked out a little system that did this very thing (putting the equivalent of the Heightened house rule right into the character building process). When 2nd edition came out I submitted the idea to BASHMAN for an article in BAM. It didn’t make it for BAM #4’s release but he has posted on Scribd somewhere (not sure of the link).

It was called the “The Whole Story on the Half Stat”. Essentially this optional rule players are allowed players to purchase Stats at ½ point increments for 1 character point each – up to, but not beyond rank 5 (0.5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, and 5). This process allowed heroes and villains with a little more variation in stats but everything still fit perfectly within the rules structure as written. The down-side, however, was that having those decimal points all over the character’s Stats was a little ‘ugly’.

I’ve come to like Dragonfly’s HEIGHTENED power more as it is more elegant; doing the same basic thing, but with more simplicity. However, the more I played around with BASH:UE, the more I’ve come to appreciate the Stat system as it is.

If someone has the Scribd link that would be great for those wishing to check it out. If BASHMAN doesn’t mind I could reprint it here.

I even created a revised chart (like the one on the back cover of the book) with the half-stat multipliers included for ease of use.

In full color…


With less color (to safe ink)…