Varying Point Totals in a Campaign

[drkrash]

For those who have actual campaign experience, how often have players actually willingly created characters with less points than the campaign level? It's a cool rule that I love, but a recent discussion with a couple of my normal players said they would never willingly deprive themselves of points just for Hero Points each session.

[kevperrine]

This is odd.

I'm not sure why. Perhaps a better "essay" on why it's cool or interesting in a future BASH! release (like that Narrator Guide I wanna write!) might help with this.

Me...
If I were to EVER get to play in a BASH! (or heck, any supers game) I love the idea of varying point totals. I got to test/try it with BASHMAN in the online game he ran awhile back, specifically TO test the idea of having a Captain America type on the same team as an IronMan, GreenLantern, and Thor type.
In my opinion, it worked wonderfully as I played the Cap-clone.

That said.
Every player I've ever ran a BASH! game for/with have inherently moved toward similar point values (only differing by 3-4 points each).
Most ask what the "campaign level" is to build toward that as well, even though I've always explained that it's 100% unnecessary.

Lastly. I tend to have a general idea of the point value for Campaign Level for campaigns I run... but overall I prefer the idea (to my knowledge no one else really does it this way regularly) I like to set EACH game session's point value depending on the villains/threats for THAT issue alone. So. When the players come to the table I announce what the Issue's "value" is and they get new Hero Points/Dice accordingly. The same idea as they normally would get points for the entire campaign point level, just changing weekly.
The way I figure it, that mimics the episodic style of issue-to-issue much better. When in this issue the PCs might need to deal with "the Trapster" and next issue the entire Brotherhood of Evil shows up.

That's my take.
-kev-

[BASHMAN]

I've run PLENTY of games where people made characters well below the point cap. 25 point patriotic shield slingers and web swingers fighting alongside 40+ point thunder gods and men of iron. I've had 23 point Mystery Men (Monster Hunter and Stage Magician) alongside a 38 point teleporters and fire masters in a campaign that lasted over a year.

I didn't make people choose the lower point characters; they chose those characters. And it worked out great.

If 1 hero point per point of difference is not enough, you can do 2 hero points per point of difference if you want to "sweeten" the choice of the lower point character.

[drkrash]

In one of these conversations, I assured the player that (just for the sake of an example) a 25-point combat monster could fight just fine against a 40-point combat monster.

He agreed that would probably be the case, but he said that the 40-point character is just going to be able to do more, even in combat, while the 25-point character is going to seem more like a one-trick pony.

Now, taking this out of the context of just combat, it seems this problem might actually be magnified. How might you respond to the notion that more points definitely means being able to do more things consistently?

I understand that one of the counter-arguments is that sometimes a mystery man-type concept just doesn't need 40 points. But let's face it: no player wants to feel their character can't do as much as someone else's character.

Please keep in mind that I love the rule, and I've seen it do cool things in my own personal play tests. But it seems a hard sell to players (perhaps especially players used to HERO).

[doktorelektron]

I understand that one of the counter-arguments is that sometimes a mystery man-type concept just doesn't need 40 points. But let's face it: no player wants to feel their character can't do as much as someone else's character.

I think it's an issue of identifying where the flexibility comes into play. For the character built on a higher point total it's right there on the sheet in the form of his or her giant variety pack of powers. However, for a 25pt (for example) character playing in a 40 pt world, it comes in the form of all the potentially funky stuff that you can do with those three extra hero dice. I would say that you definitely need to put in a bit of work to get the best out of this sort of character but, once you start pulling off a few nifty power stunts, you may find that you have more options than you thought.

[texaspoet]

If 1 hero point per point of difference is not enough, you can do 2 hero points per point of difference if you want to "sweeten" the choice of the lower point character.

Ooh, I like this idea, makes it much more attractive!

[BASHMAN]

I have a 25 point character. You have 40 points. I get 3 Hero Dice more than you do. That gives me 3 "do whatever I want" cards I can play per game session that you cannot play.

You have more options on your sheet; but I have more options off the sheet. I can power stunt to do something we really need, or auto-succeed on that tricky skill check to de-fuse the world-killer device.

In a major combat, most of the time, you'll hit harder than me. But that clutch moment, I'll Power Stunt attack weak point, Throw a Hero Die on the roll to hit by more than 20, spend a Hero Point to use that as my damage roll.

I've seen the Thundergod and the man of Iron get batted back by a giant robot that the next turn was beheaded by the shield-slinger in much the same way.

It really depends on how you like to play. The extra hero dice really act as wild cards that let you do things "outside the box" much more often.

Now if you combine things like "Attack Weak Point" "Gadgeteer" and "Leadership" advantage with the lower Character Point count, those individual Hero Points become all the more incredibly useful.

[BASHMAN]

Dkrash, I have a suggestion, and it is a bit unorthodox. Use a GM PC. Make a 25 point GM PC that is part of the hero team.

Give him Attack Weak Point, Gadgeteer, etc. If nobody else takes it, even give him leadership.

Use this character to great effect during the game; show how valuable those 3 Hero Dice and extra Hero Points can be.

Eventually, have this character be for some reason relegated to the background (after the first story-arc is completed); but the impression of the "useless" 25 point character should be deluted.

The key is knowing how to play the 25 point character in a 40 point game; something that new players might find difficult.

Another recommendation: use Pre-Gens to run a 1-shot first. Have these be of varying levels of power. You might even model them on characters the players will recognize from the comics so they can pick their favorite (point cost be darned).

Regarding new players, during play, give suggestions to them; don't presume rules knowledge by the players. So if someone makes a good roll to hit and has Attack Weak Point, tell them "Hey you could spend a Hero POint to make that attack roll be your damage roll". Or if the team is split up, you can tell someone "Spend a Hero Die and your character arrives before XYZ happens".

[drkrash]

Great suggestions, BASHMAN. Like I said, I don't need to be convinced - it's a matter of helping change player perspective. Furthermore, I suspect I'm not the first BASH GM to run into this issue with new players (kev seems to suggest as much up above).

There might even be a short BAM article in here somewhere.

[doktorelektron]

What about asking the player to design a 25 pt character and then sitting down together and working out a sample list of possible hero dice stunts based off the character's powers?

[drkrash]

Good idea. Which reminds me, BASHMAN: in Awesome Powers, do you touch on any more formal guidelines for Power Stunting with Hero Dice? The official rule in the book doesn't really give guidelines of how many points the stunted power should be worth, or whether it should have any relation to the points of the power being used for the stunt.

Sorry. De-railed my own thread there.

[BASHMAN]

It wasn't something I brought up, but it does have "Suggested Stunts" for certain powers. So if you have Terrakinesis, it suggests Stalagtite Missiles as a stunt, for example.