Ranged Attacks

[Harrigan]

Hi folks. Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but my searching didn't turn up anything, so...

Still reading through the UE book and just trying to get an overall feel for how things will run. Strikes me that there might be some minor issues between Damage and Soak in some of the supplied builds. Look, for example, at the tank in the WWII section on p79. Pit a pair of those at one another and you better get some popcorn, because I think you're in for a loooong fight, given the soak values are x8 and the guns are x5. Is that a typo? Seems like tank guns should be a lot higher, especially given tank armor of x8.

In general I'm having a bit of a hard time coming to grips with the "Mind as Damage" angle. Because of the various limits on things like Special Attack (to level 5), I'm looking down the road and seeing potential problems with heroes and villains who are

a) not very intelligent, and
b) reliant on ranged weapons

Meaning if someone has Mind 1 or 2, and they want Mid Range at least on their Special Attack, that leaves a measly +3 to the damage multiplier. Even if you have Mind 2, that's a grand total of x5. Hardly enough to crush / destroy a tank, with it's x8 Soak.

Am I missing something, or is it difficult to put together a character who isn't a genius, but who hits hard from afar?

[urbwar]

I'm not sure I'm getting you here. What does wanting mid range on an attack have to do with the damage multiplier? That's a separate cost added onto the power. The only thing each level of attack does is either add +1 to hit or add 1 to the damage multiple. So if you have a level 5 SA, you can add +2 to hit, and 3 to the damage multiplier. Making it mid-range simply adds 2 points to the cost, so a level 5 SA costs 7 points, not 5.

You could simply have the attack do all 5 to damage, which at say, Mind 2 means 7 to the damage multiplier. It really depends on how you build the attack.

There is also the extra effect enhancement, defining it as adding to the multiple vs armored opponents to represent an armor piercing attack (this was discussed in another thread here on the forum).

In regard to low mind affecting damage: That's what boost is for. You can buy Boost (Mind) that only works when applying damage to a special attack. Otherwise, it has no effect on a character's mind. So you could have Boost (Mind) 2 for a character with Mind 2, and their Mind is effectively 4 when it comes to using mind for damage, but nothing else.

Also, just because someone has a higher soak doesn't mean they will soak a lesser attack value's attack every time. They can still roll low, while the attacker rolls high on the damage roll, and thus get through more damage. I've seen this happen in games I've run. Having a higher soak doesn't guarantee they take little to no damage from attacks.

Hope that helps a little

[Harrigan]

Not getting me because I'm being clear as mud and not understanding what I'm reading, apparently.

I thought the "limit" of 5 on Special Attack also applied to things like modding the range. So you had 5pts to play with for attack, damage, range, area, etc. Very glad to hear that my interpretation isn't right. I did build a character last night with Boost used the way you describe as well, so something is starting to sink in, at least. I'll go back to the drawing table tonight and see if lifting this limitation changes things the way I suspect it will.

Still not digging tanks with Soak 8 and Cannon 5, but I think the way to fix that is to simply have the armor rated a little lower and the cannon higher. To avoid it taking 20 shots on average for a Sherman to knock out a Pz IV. And might look into the Extra Effect to model AP ammo / high-velocity guns.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I'll likely post a few more bone-headed interpretations of things before I really get this right, so patience is appreciated.

[kevperrine]

Well as for ranged attacks with Weapons...
Don't you use MIND as the Damage only when it's a Power, and use the weapon noted Damage (even for range) when it a simple weapon (not a power)?

Wouldn't this "scale" even up to Tanks as being Weapons?

Not sure what to say about the Tank armor x8 vs. gun x5. If that's true it must me a mistake ... perhaps the tank guns are supposed to have armor piercing or something?

BASHMAN might have an explanation.
-kev-

[BeardedDork]

After spending several years in a Tank, I think the values used are fair. A straight fight between two modern tanks would take forever because the armor is much tougher than the cannon.
If you don't think it should be that way, then change it, by all means. But I think you are looking at it wrong.
This is a game about superheroes, and the stats presented for things are going to represent their interactions with those heroes. Do you really want your heroes just punching holes in tanks while getting blown to bits by them? I can't imagine why the stats would even matter in the standard tank on standard tank battle you describe, unless the heroes are driving one of the tanks this should just be narrated the way you want the story to go.
outside the conversation but to provide some background on tank warfare. The main purpose of a tank is to be mobile and as indestructible as possible. The main gun is a secondary concern, the rounds are variable some are armor piercing for dealing with other armored vehicles, some are high explosive to deal with soft vehicles and personnel. Even without the gun the tank is a force to be reckoned with because it is nearly indestructible and has a radio to communicate with support elements such as artillery or naval or air support.

[BASHMAN]

No the limit of 5 does not apply to range. You can have a SPecial Attack +5DM Extreme Range Extreme Burst blast if you want for a mere 13 points.

I do see how this could be confusing, however because of the way it was written in the 1st printing. This is one thing that I made more clear in the 2nd printing. If you've got the pdf, where did you get it from? Soon pdfs will be updated at the various sites that sell them, once the dead tree books begin hitting shelves.

[BASHMAN]

As to Tanks doing x5 Dmg- I do see that could be an issue. Remember that they add their Size bonus to damage as well.

Nevertheless, feel free to adjust write-ups to suit your needs. Those builds were done from a "Superhero Vs. Vehicle" point-of-view, rather than a "Vehicle vs. Vehicle" point-of-view.

Some easy solutions would be to lower the Armor of the vehicle, or increase the damage.

As for "Low Mind" ranged attacks, that is precicely what the Boost power is for. It makes it so a character with a low mind can still have a powerful energy blast.

[Harrigan]

Well, bear in mind what this is about is me trying to understand the "reality" that base Bash! is modeling. I actually find the modeling of tanks in supers systems pretty useful, because there's an implicit rule around certain types of supers being powerful enough to "shrug off a tank round" or crush said vehicle with super-strength -- in one go. (See: the Hulk tearing off tank turrets.) So it's a bit of a litmus test for me, to see if I need to monkey around with things to fit the four-color reality *I'm* looking for.

So no "bad" on Bash!, just trying to understand the reality the system is modeling.

I will say, though, that in the small amount of play-testing I've done I was using static soak numbers -- maybe rolling will mix it up. Doing that and adding Weak Point vs. Armor on tank cannons might be a nice model.

(Also, these are WWII tank stats. During the war, there were several occasions when tank armor far outstripped the guns of a time, then the opposite would happen. The stats I'm looking at are for a "generic" tank, and one called out as a Sherman. Not exactly an armored beast.)

Anyway. Hopefully that explains why I'm looking at tanks. I'll soon move on to bricks and such.

[Harrigan]

Got the PDF from RPGNow. Can check tonight if you wish on the language.

Didn't know about adding size to Damage, that will *certainly* help...

[BeardedDork]

(Also, these are WWII tank stats. During the war, there were several occasions when tank armor far outstripped the guns of a time, then the opposite would happen. The stats I'm looking at are for a "generic" tank, and one called out as a Sherman. Not exactly an armored beast.)

You are correct, I'd forgotten that. That's about 60 years outside my expertise.

[Harrigan]

I'm struggling a little on the notation, for sure. Check this out, from p79:

Tank 29pts
Rolling on treads, this war machine can plow through brick walls. A Sherman Tank (US model) is not as heavily armored (Armor 2) but is faster (Super Running 2).
B4 A1 M4
Powers: Size 2 (+10 Brawn & Soak rolls) 2pts, Super Running 1 (4 squares) 1pt, Armor 3 (x7+10 Soak) 3pts, Guns: Special Attack 5 (x5 Dmg, Mid Range, Medium Burst) 5pts. Disadvantage: Crew.

There, that bit there in italics... is that saying the TOTAL damage of the gun, after adding Mind (and even Size) is x5? Or that all five points on Special Attack went to Damage rather than Attack... and so the actual straight-on damage multiplier of the gun is actually x11? (M4 + x5 from Special + Size 2)

This might be where some of my confusion came from. I was reading Special Attack 5 as 1pt to Damage, 2 to range (first Close then Mid) and 2 to area (first small burst then medium burst). Not correct, I see now, but can someone point out the logic of the notation (even if it's a reference in the book I've somehow missed).

[urbwar]

Not getting me because I'm being clear as mud and not understanding what I'm reading, apparently.

Pretty much not getting you for being clear as mud

I thought the "limit" of 5 on Special Attack also applied to things like modding the range. So you had 5pts to play with for attack, damage, range, area, etc. Very glad to hear that my interpretation isn't right. I did build a character last night with Boost used the way you describe as well, so something is starting to sink in, at least. I'll go back to the drawing table tonight and see if lifting this limitation changes things the way I suspect it will.

Yeah, it is a little confusing (I had asked a similar question regarding the points and such early on), though I believe the new printing clarifies this better.
[/quote]

Also, if you are running a higher point game, you could allow cosmic levels, which means any power that goes to 5 points can go above 5. So Special Attack could go higher than 5; you could allow Special Attack 8. This was something else I didn't grok before I ran a cosmic game. Of course, you're going to start doing a lot more damage (in a Cosmic game I ran, players were basically defeating starships with 1 or 2 shots)

Still not digging tanks with Soak 8 and Cannon 5, but I think the way to fix that is to simply have the armor rated a little lower and the cannon higher. To avoid it taking 20 shots on average for a Sherman to knock out a Pz IV. And might look into the Extra Effect to model AP ammo / high-velocity guns.

Before you do that, why not try running a fight between 2 tanks, to see how the die chart affects things? You might see better that it's not as bad as you think.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I'll likely post a few more bone-headed interpretations of things before I really get this right, so patience is appreciated.

Your welcome. Trust me, everyone here always finds something new to ask about. I know I do!

[urbwar]

There, that bit there in italics... is that saying the TOTAL damage of the gun, after adding Mind (and even Size) is x5? Or that all five points on Special Attack went to Damage rather than Attack... and so the actual straight-on damage multiplier of the gun is actually x11? (M4 + x5 from Special + Size 2)

The X5 is just from the Special Attack. Each level of SA allows either +1 to hit, or X1 damage. From the description, this SA was built with X5 damage. Adding in the Mind of 4, it would be X9.

It does look like the point cost is off with the range and burst though, as BASHMAN pointed out earlier that it should be 13 points. Seems the cost for range and burst were left out.

Now I understand better why you were confused!

[BASHMAN]

Actually the problem is that I was being inconsistant on whether the level in the power included the Range, Area, etc. The rules say "NO" but some write-ups do have it working that way. The tank is one example of this. (This inconsistency, btw has been fixed in the 2nd printing).

Here is what it says in the 2nd Printing:

Tank 29pts
Rolling on treads, this war machine can plow through brick
walls. A Sherman Tank (US model) is not as heavily armored
(Armor 2) but is faster (Super Running 2).
B4 A1 M4
Powers: Size 2 (+10 Brawn & Soak rolls) 2pts,
Super Running 1 (4 squares) 1pt,
Armor 3 (x7+10 Soak) 3pts,
Guns: Special Attack 1 (x5+10 Dmg, Mid Range, Medium Burst) 5pts.
Disadvantage: Crew.

So I corrected the problem of the Range being included in the Special Attack's level. (I did this for all builds). This means, that if the Narrator wants tanks to do more than x5+10 (average 45 Dmg, enough to blow holes in brick walls) it is VERY easy to add levels in Special Attack to raise it! Changing it to Special Attack 2 or 3 would make the Tank even more destructive (and perhaps more realistic)

So if you want to represent more modern armor, or even futuristic hover-tanks with laser cannons on them, you can just turn up the damage. Likewise, different WWII era tanks could be represented by toying with the powers a bit to represent your vision. The stuff listed here is just a few examples to get you going.

[Harrigan]

Sweet. Makes my head feel better.

And yeah, I get that these are examples to get people rolling. And roll I did. Just statted up a whole whack of WWII weapons, from common side arms like the Lee Enfield, K98, MP38, Thompson, M1 Garand, 1911 and Luger to machine guns, anti-tank guns, mortars and even the lowly British PIAT, all using the weapons rules and some power limitations and enhancements. Pretty nifty.

I know that in general I won't need or want this kind of splitting hairs on common weapons, but it sure makes me happy that the system can support subtle differences.

I modeled the differences between the semi-auto American M1 and the bolt-action German K98 like this:

M1 Garand
Special Attack 4 (x4 Dmg)
Ammo 8
Range 40
Limitations: Gadget, Easily Taken

Mauser K98
Special Attack 4 (x4 Dmg)
Ammo 5
Range 40
Limitations: Concentration, Gadget, Easily Taken

Digging that the bolt-action means that little bit of extra time is needed, and you're slowed down if advancing. Good stuff.

(I also know none of this is very "super" -- but it's all in the interest of throwing this stuff at Golden Age WWII heroes if that's the game I run. )