does Weapon Technique combine with Power+Limitation Gadget?

kevperrine · Post by **kevperrine** » Sat May 28, 2011 4:40 pm

Something came up in-game that I thought of to ask...

The cowboy-roping teen-hero KID WRANGLE has the IMMOBILIZATION power with the Limitation: Gadget. The power works with his LARIAT "Gadget" to show that it's his rope that he's using to lasso and tie villains up.

Can the Lariat Rope be a "weapon" for the Weapon Technique power?

If so... does that allow the Weapon Technique bonus (+x2 Agility to his weapon: "rope use") add to the hit multiplier FOR that Immobilization power (since it's using his Gadget: Lariat).

Lastly.... would using ANY power with his rope (such as swinging) get that bonus if in a situation that it could be called for?

thanks!
-kev-

Dustland · Post by **Dustland** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:01 pm

Intense Training Powers are not usable with powers other than other Intense Training Powers. I believe Bashman has had to clarify this a few times and I'm hoping it is clearer in the new printing.

On p51, in the example for Weapon Technique it specifies that the Hero must decide between using his Intense Training powers or the sword's magical powers, he can't use both.

Master-X · Post by **Master-X** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:25 am

sorry to appear a bit dim but would that include for example a "normal weapon" bought with a enhancement, could that be used with Intense training powers ? do enhancements count as powers for this ruling?

again my apologies if this has been already answered on another thread

Dragonfly · Post by **Dragonfly** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:27 am

Master-X wrote:sorry to appear a bit dim but would that include for example a "normal weapon" bought with a enhancement, could that be used with Intense training powers ? do enhancements count as powers for this ruling?

again my apologies if this has been already answered on another thread

My sense is that Dustland is correct in his assessment here, but I also think there are some grey areas. I haven't had the spare cash to purchase the adventure Vengeance is Nigh, but isn't there a character in there that uses Paired Weapons with his Special Attack (claws)?

Master-X, I don't know what the official ruling would be, but I personally would allow use of an Intense Training power (say Weapon Technique) with a "normal" gun bought with an Enhancement (say Extra Effect - vs. Body Armor to represent Armor Piercing bullets). It just makes conceptual sense.

Best,

Dragonfly

Dustland · Post by **Dustland** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:56 am

I haven't purchased Vengance is Nigh, so I can't speak to the Claws question.

I still think the official answer would be no, but this would be entirely up to the narrator to decide.

If a player wanted to make the argument that armor piercing bullets are not special powers but fall into the equipment catagory instead, then so be it. Ever faced a room full of minions armed with the not so special armor piercing rounds? If it's equipment, everyone has access to it

Dragonfly · Post by **Dragonfly** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:22 am

Dustland wrote:I haven't purchased Vengance is Nigh, so I can't speak to the Claws question.

I still think the official answer would be no, but this would be entirely up to the narrator to decide.

If a player wanted to make the argument that armor piercing bullets are not special powers but fall into the equipment catagory instead, then so be it. Ever faced a room full of minions armed with the not so special armor piercing rounds? If it's equipment, everyone has access to it

Yes, that's actually how I would play it too. Armor piercing rounds DO exist in the real world, so it IS possible to encounter minions that use them. I don't think I'd equip all my thugs with them, just to "get back" at a player that is trying to game the system, but I will certainly allow minions to use such rounds when it makes sense (dramatically, logistically, conceptually, and otherwise).

While we're on it, Intense Training powers are one of the few things in BASH UE that bugs me just a bit. I like most of the actual powers, but I don't like the divide between them and all other powers. It creates a seemingly arbitrary divide within the logic of the game (at least as far as my sensibilities are concerned). I think you SHOULD be able to use paired weapons and some of the other powers with Special Attacks and other non-Intense Training powers. I would prefer to see some Intense Training powers as power constructions built out of other, more fundamental, effects. Weapon Technique is one of these. It's actually cheaper to buy:

Boost 1 (Agility - Only to Hit), 1 pt.
Boost 1 (Brawn - Only for Damage), 1 pt.

Than it is to buy:

Weapon Technique 3 (All HtH, +1 Hit, +1 Damage), 3 pts.

The first build is not only cheaper, but you actually get to use it with Special Attacks AND regular weapons AND it's more broadly defined (yet totally legal within the system). If I go the Weapon Technique route, I pay more AND I have to worry about compatibility, etc. I'm concept driven, rather than point effectiveness driven, so I use Weapon Technique quite a bit when it makes sense conceptually, but then again I'm the Narrator, and therefore less concerned about using my points wisely. It would be nice to see these minor inconsistencies ironed out at some point.

As usual, though, these are minor annoyances to me - more like preferences. BASH UE is still the best game out there, as far as I'm concerned.

I hope all that makes sense!

Best,

Dragonfly

kevperrine · Post by **kevperrine** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:46 am

Dragonfly wrote: Boost 1 (Agility - Only to Hit), 1 pt.
Boost 1 (Brawn - Only for Damage), 1 pt.

Than it is to buy:

Weapon Technique 3 (All HtH, +1 Hit, +1 Damage), 3 pts.

The first build is not only cheaper, but you actually get to use it with Special Attacks AND regular weapons AND it's more broadly defined (yet totally legal within the system). If I go the Weapon Technique route, I pay more AND I have to worry about compatibility, etc. I'm concept driven, rather than point effectiveness driven,

That's a sticking point with me that I dislike regarding thinking about modeling builds. It is cheaper, it is legal, and it does NOT go completely against theme of an idea for any real character concept. It's just more efficient.

I hate builds and the folk that make them that moan about "character concept" vs. efficiency. To me, it's a complaint that someone not able to think of such a creative use of the rules that can't FIND the most effective cost goes on about.

My opinion.
MIN-MAX.
It's your *responsibility* as a good teammate (if I'm a fellow player)!! Get the most for your Character Point costs that you can WITHOUT sacrificing the suspension of disbelief on any concept.
If it doesn't completely and obviously break a concept, you not only SHOULD do it.... you better do it, or as a fellow player on your team - you're honestly letting me down. Not bringing your "A-game" to the fight against crime!!

Min-Maxing is (in my not-so humble opinion) not not NOT a negative term. It's making the minimum cost effectiveness for the maximum rule benefit but WITHOUT breaking concept or the rules as written.
Min-Maxing is NOT the same as "Power Gaming" or "Munchkining" the game. Those (in my opinion) are negative because they're looking to cheat the game or find loopholes, etc... that are unfair in the spirit of the idea (concept or RAW).

So ...
I applaud the idea!!

-kev-

urbwar · Post by **urbwar** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:50 am

I have Vengeance is Nigh, so I can confirm that the character Vengeance has "Talons" bought as a special attack, and does have paired weapons (and the combat info does list using the talons paired)

Saker · Post by **Saker** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:30 am

For my two cents...

I believe all of the Intense Training powers can be used with Special Attack except for Weapon Technique: Attack Weak Point, Double Taps, Disarm Expert, Offhand Shooting, Paired Weapons & Swift Strike.

I also believe Weapon Technique is two points more expensive than an equivalent Special Attack. WT is only more cost effective if the hero is using a SMG x4 damage or bigger, because of the differential with Mind. WT for the most part becomes a character conceptual thing.

If WT gave Variable for free AND Special Attack had to specify melee OR ranged when using Variable, WT would become more equivalent to taking Special Attack.

cheers

Dustland · Post by **Dustland** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:35 am

Boost 1 (Agility - Only to Hit), 1 pt.
Boost 1 (Brawn - Only for Damage), 1 pt.

Than it is to buy:

Weapon Technique 3 (All HtH, +1 Hit, +1 Damage), 3 pts

Something to keep in mind too, you can't purchase Boost if you're a normal dude, so Weapon Technique may be the only option to get these bonuses for some folks.

Doesn't make it any more/less *, it is what it is.

Post by **BASHMAN** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:26 pm

Weapon Technnique for ALL WEAPONS is 2 points more expensive. But weapon technique for a single weapon is equivilent.

Don't forget that hand to hand weapons add a result bonus to damage based on Brawn- which is not insignificant.

I've made characters wielding paired katanas with Weapon Tech. in a supers campaign that could be absolutely devastating.

Having it for ALL Weapons (or all H2H) also applies to your unarmed attacks- don't forget that.

Dragonfly · Post by **Dragonfly** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:34 pm

BASHMAN wrote:Weapon Technnique for ALL WEAPONS is 2 points more expensive. But weapon technique for a single weapon is equivilent.

Don't forget that hand to hand weapons add a result bonus to damage based on Brawn- which is not insignificant.

I've made characters wielding paired katanas with Weapon Tech. in a supers campaign that could be absolutely devastating.

Having it for ALL Weapons (or all H2H) also applies to your unarmed attacks- don't forget that.

Hey BASHMAN,

Oh, I know about the result bonus from hand weapons. It's nice. The character Nightshift in my Classic Champions campaign used that rule to great effect. However, you don't need Weapon Technique to get that bonus, right? All Weapon Technique does is give me an extra +1 Multiplier to Damage or to Hit. I can pull off the same effect with Boost.

Also, my Boost 1 (Agility - Only to Hit) or my Boost 1 (Brawn - Only for Damage) ALSO applies to my unarmed attacks. Indeed, the Boost 1 (Agility) applies to ALL my attacks, and my Boost 2 (Brawn) applies to ALL of my HTH attacks as well as my thrown attacks.

Unless I'm missing something, Weapon Technique AT BEST breaks even. At its worst, you are paying MORE to do less. I guess I don't mind breaking even to do less (say buying Boost 1 [Agility - Only to Hit] vs. Boost 1 [Agility - Only to Hit with Bows]). The simplicity of BASH UE is worth that the inequity there. I am less enthused, however, about a power that often costs MORE for less effect - especially when it has the added annoyance of bringing up questions about compatibility with other powers, etc.

Again - these are minor issues for me, but, unless I'm missing something, the point inequities DO exist, and the factors mentioned thus far don't change this fact.

Maybe there is a situation with the stacking of modifiers that makes Weapon Technique more worth it? Or maybe there is something else I'm not thinking of right now? (There usually is!

Best,

Dragonfly

Dragonfly · Post by **Dragonfly** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:43 pm

Dustland wrote:
Boost 1 (Agility - Only to Hit), 1 pt.
Boost 1 (Brawn - Only for Damage), 1 pt.

Than it is to buy:

Weapon Technique 3 (All HtH, +1 Hit, +1 Damage), 3 pts
Something to keep in mind too, you can't purchase Boost if you're a normal dude, so Weapon Technique may be the only option to get these bonuses for some folks.

Doesn't make it any more/less *, it is what it is.

Well, superheroes are, by definition, not normal dudes - unless they take the Normal Disadvantage. I tend NOT to take the Normal Disadvantage anyway, even for characters who are gadgeteers or martial artist types, precisely because of this sort of thing. Sometimes you'll want to model a non-super ability with a Power, but the Normal Disadvantage prevents you from doing it (or should). Buying a trip attack modeled with the Push power, for instance, would be the equivalent of modeling special training with a Special Attack. I use Normal liberally to model characters who lose a significant portion of their powers when out of superhero IDs (like Hulk or Thor), but even Iron Man poses a challenge here, as his Mind score is technically too high to warrant its use (but I allow it anyway). For the record, I didn't like Normal Characteristic Maxima as a Disadvantage in Champions either.

In short I guess I'm saying that the Normal Disadvantage is something that a PC never HAS to take (unless the Narrator forces it on his players) - so technically it doesn't really restrict options at character creation (unless you choose that to be the case). Probably most people interested in the Boost build WON'T choose that Disadvantage.

This doesn't invalidate your point, of course, but the initial issue of Boost v. Weapon Technique remains an issue for me (albiet a mild one).

Best,

Dragonfly