Rules Question: Cosmic level summoning

[Master-X]

I am toying with the idea of Cosmic level summoning.. but cant think end sequence of "Bedknobs and broomsticks" but more mean whats the best way to go about modelling this power?

[urbwar]

I am toying with the idea of Cosmic level summoning.. but cant think end sequence of "Bedknobs and broomsticks" but more mean whats the best way to go about modelling this power?

Since Summoning (as part of the Mastery power) scales to 5, it can all ready go to Cosmic Scale (as per the rules in the section on Cosmic level games in the Narrator's section). *, it could go to the Beyond rating if you wanted it to!

I'd read that section thoroughly, and think about how the additional levels affect what the entity can summon

[Master-X]

Aye.. I've had a good read and still trying to quantify how to represent it effectively in game. I think I should use Minions/Mobs somehow

[urbwar]

Aye.. I've had a good read and still trying to quantify how to represent it effectively in game. I think I should use Minions/Mobs somehow

What level on the cosmic scale are you planning to use? That info would be a little helpful in trying to give you some advice.

[Master-X]

What level on the cosmic scale are you planning to use? That info would be a little helpful in trying to give you some advice.

I think around 10-15 Lvls from reading, that allows to create a "grid size" every 10 lvls and a grid works out as 5 sq which could be used to give you a "size" for a "summoned army" ?

[urbwar]

I think around 10-15 Lvls from reading, that allows to create a "grid size" every 10 lvls and a grid works out as 5 sq which could be used to give you a "size" for a "summoned army" ?

Now that I'm back from Recess, I can give more attention to this. Summoning is pretty restricted, as within the first 5 levels, the most you can summon is 6 beings with 10 hits each, If you follow that limit into Cosmic levels, levels 6-10 would only allow up to 12 at 10 hits, and 11-15 would only allow up to 18. The upside is the amount the stat pool is based on the level +2, and powers (barring restricted ones) to just the level. That gives 12-17 points for stats, and 10-15 points for powers.

For something on a cosmic scale, that seems kind of weak to me. so I'm not sure to how to adjust that. You could adjust how many they can summon at levels above 5 if you want, but going as written, you'd likely need a Beyond rating in order to summon an entire army.

Not much help really....

[Master-X]

Thanks anyways mate it always useful to sound out these things as I had the same thoughts to.. Think I'll stick to "ad hoc" as it involves only NPC use and no a PC

[kevperrine]

This idea is very curious to me. As others have said, I like using the RAW to build things as opposed to making up things House Ruled all the time. So here's my take...


Two thoughts to begin help...

#1.
A similar (in idea - creating a group of "helpers") power DUPLICATION is not scalable to Cosmic Power levels. So I'd wonder if Summoning is limited to not being a Cosmic Power as well?

#2.
But the RAW states: Scaling Powers to Cosmic Levels - "Most powers that are scalable to Cosmic levels, you simply continue applying the existing rules beyond 5 levels." (BASH! US p.95)




So... let's look at the key existing rules that we could "continue applying" for Summoning.

SUMMONING
1-5 pts; Concentration
This power enables the user to call living things into being, or to bring non-living things to life.

The summoned being will have points in powers equal to the user’s level in Summoning.
(with a maximum of 5 in each stat and a minimum of 1)

This rule is cut and dry. No change. Simply: Power Points to spend = Summoning Level. Easy. Though you might use the Enhancement (noted below) for "Extra Effect" to allow stats above 5 for Cosmics.

Stat pool equal to the user’s level in the power +2.

Again, this rule is cut and dry. No change. Simply: Stat Points to spend = Summoning Level x2. Easy.

All have identical stats and powers.
A summoned being cannot have the following powers: Healing, Duplication, Shape-Shifting, X-Ray Vision, ESP, Telepathy, Mind Control, Clairvoyance, or Summoning/Animation.
All can move each page.
Only one can act each page.

All simple, cut and dry.

You can summon:
One Creature @ 60 hits
Two Creatures @ 30 hits each
Three Creatures @ 20 hits each
Six Creatures @ 10 hits each

Here's the sticking point with your "army" idea... And where I impasse with urbwar's extension of the rule according to the RAW.

At nowhere does it say a Summoner can create 4 or 5, or 7 or more Creatures. Period. There is no suggestion that the rule "extends" beyond Six Creatures the HITS would also be assumed to lower with each stage. I don't think the idea is to allow this at all.


With that...
Perhaps, to achieve the "army" you're looking for (great idea BTW)... and still trying to follow the RAW - I might suggest considering what this enhancement might be able to do, it's "rule" is sort of nebulous so it might be usable to "upgrade" Summoning to the Cosmic Style you want:

ENHANCEMENT - Extra Effect: This enhancement makes the power more effective in certain situations.
In the case of non-damaging effects, if no multiplier is involved, then duration might be doubled in that situation, or alternatively, the Narrator and player can figure it out together.

Perhaps making the Extra Effect double, but this still wouldnot take it into "army" category really. Unless you took the same "Extra Effect" multiple times - which would square the total each time. Something like:

Extra Effect 1 = 12 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 2 = 24 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 3 = 48 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 4 = 96 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 5 = 192 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 6 = 384 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 7 = 768 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 8 = 1,536 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 9 = 3,072 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 10 = 6,144 Creatures @ 10 hits each.
Extra Effect 11 = 12,288 Creatures @ 10 hits each.

etc...

Alternatively. The only other way I can see that you might do what you're looking for:

LIFE:
Look at using the Cosmic Power "LIFE", as it utilizes Summoning as part of it's base power. Though it does not suggest being able to increase the actual number of Summoned Creatures - exactly the same problem the base Summoning has and it notes that LIFE is different than Summoning, in that the summoned are "real"...

OR
Use the Villain Advantage (BASH! p.67)
Devoted Henchmen
This Villain has an army of loyal minions, who would even die for their master. A Villain with the Devoted Henchmen advantage can use them to give himself a Dice Bonus on attacks, as if they were assisting him on a skill check. In addition, whenever this Villain is hit by an attack, the Villain can spend a Setback to make one of the minions take the hit instead. Devoted henchmen are often robots, undead, animals, brainwashed, etc.

Perhaps with a combination of:
Sidekick to have a "Captain" of the army, or the like.


Whew.... that's a toughy. I'd love to hear BASHMAN's ideas for it...

[urbwar]

At nowhere does it say a Summoner can create 4 or 5, or 7 or more Creatures. Period. There is no suggestion that the rule "extends" beyond Six Creatures the HITS would also be assumed to lower with each stage. I don't think the idea is to allow this at all.

Of course it doesn't state you can create more as is, because it's designed as a normal power, not a cosmic power. However, limiting such a power at cosmic levels is kind of ludicrous, imho. A cosmic power is supposed to be EPIC, not mundane. You're supposed to be able to do massive things at the cosmic level. Restricting it to just 6 creatures does not equal EPIC in any way, shape or form.

In fact, as I stated, Summoning could be given a rating of Beyond, and there's no way you can convince me that with a Beyond rating (which is limitless) should be so restricted. It goes against what abilities at such levels can do

(and to answer another comment that I didn't quote: Yes, Summoning does scale to Cosmic levels, because in the regular scale it goes to level 5. Any power that does so can be scaled to cosmic levels. Personally I think all powers should scale to cosmic level myself, but that's a personal peeve about the rules that I feel doesn't match the genre)

Life could be an alternative, but again, I'd suggest giving it a Beyond rating, because then there are no limits to what you can do with it. That's the whole point of the Beyond rating after all.

[kevperrine]

Of course it doesn't state you can create more as is, because it's designed as a normal power, not a cosmic power. However, limiting such a power at cosmic levels is kind of ludicrous, imho. A cosmic power is supposed to be EPIC, not mundane. You're supposed to be able to do massive things at the cosmic level. Restricting it to just 6 creatures does not equal EPIC in any way, shape or form.

hehe.... Totally.
I'm not saying I disagree with you.
I'm just going by the RAW which states: Scaling Powers to Cosmic Levels -
"Most powers that are scalable to Cosmic levels, you simply continue applying the existing rules beyond 5 levels." (BASH! US p.95)

And by the RAW of Summoning ONLY 1,2,3, & 6 Summoned Creatures are possible. Period. It doesn't even hint otherwise that the scale continues.

As as to going Cosmic... I can only assume by the RAW, that Summoning fits in that "most" category, because it's not noted otherwise.

There are several "holes" in the rules with these kinds of things. From certain Enhancements, Advantages/Disads, and especially the Cosmic rules.
I just don't think they were thought through (or rather more likely play-tested through) to fruition.

At first glance the RAW is fine.
And at first glance your thought to make it Cosmic, therefor EPIC is fine.

But they don't sync by the rules as written unfortunately. That I see anyway...

Which stinks, cause I love Cosmic comic book heroes/villains!
-kev-

[urbwar]

hehe.... Totally.
I'm not saying I disagree with you.
I'm just going by the RAW which states: Scaling Powers to Cosmic Levels -
"Most powers that are scalable to Cosmic levels, you simply continue applying the existing rules beyond 5 levels." (BASH! US p.95)

And by the RAW of Summoning ONLY 1,2,3, & 6 Summoned Creatures are possible. Period. It doesn't even hint otherwise that the scale continues

That's because scaling it into the cosmic realm is up to each individual gm to approve. What works in my game may not work in yours, etc, etc.

Edit: You do make a good point though that the RAW limits how many are summoned. I still think that when you scale it into the cosmic scale, that limitation doesn't/shouldn't apply, as it goes against what cosmic scale powers are capable of doing.

As as to going Cosmic... I can only assume by the RAW, that Summoning fits in that "most" category, because it's not noted otherwise.

If it goes to level 5, as per the section on Page 95, it can be scaled Cosmic. Summoning goes to 5 levels, so it can be scaled to cosmic levels. Only powers that don't go to 5 are not scaled up, or don't have levels (like various movement powers. You're not going to have cosmic level hovering, for instance)

There are several "holes" in the rules with these kinds of things. From certain Enhancements, Advantages/Disads, and especially the Cosmic rules.
I just don't think they were thought through (or rather more likely play-tested through) to fruition.

Well, the few cosmic level powers I've used in a game worked well enough, so I can't say if that's true or not. I agree there is some vagueness in them, but I think that's on purpose.

But they don't sync by the rules as written unfortunately. That I see anyway...

I disagree. The whole point of the cosmic rules being less detailed is because since almost anything is possible at such levels, you have to let each GM decide what fits and what doesn't

Especially if you use the Beyond rating. Because a Beyond rating is only limited by your imagination.

[kevperrine]

The whole point of the cosmic rules being less detailed is because since almost anything is possible at such levels, you have to let each GM decide what fits and what doesn't

Especially if you use the Beyond rating. Because a Beyond rating is only limited by your imagination.

I actually completely agree with your point here ... but up to a point. Meaning - up to the point that it *should* become BEYOND levels.
Those are the levels for Narrator NPC Villains (Death) & NPC Heroes (Eternity) & NPC Independants (the Watchers)

However...
If you're playing in a:
"Infinity Gauntlet"
or a
"War of Kings"

or even a campaign styled after the Green Lantern Corps (Ion Guard), or something like a Heralds of Galactus or Godland type campaign.

Any of those style games ... I really think you need those Cosmic Rules defined more. Moreso in a supers RPG rule set. Cosmics are just more common in super hero comic books, especially bigger TEAM books (World Class teams like the JLA or Avengers).
Villains or NPCs those groups deal with are often Cosmic or near.

Even the Fantastic Four deal with and fight Galactus - who could either be a "Beyond" or could be statted out by a Narrator to face.

I, personally, think the "just make it beyond" point isn't the best answer all the time. I love the idea of a system being open and flexible enough to make true stats to a cosmic villain such as Galactus. Even if it would be near impossible to beat up the Planet Eater. Even if the primary 99% way to "beat" a Galactus threat (in the plan of the Narrator) is a "Victory without Violence" ... I think it can be fun for the PC-Heroes to understand that the big-G-man IS statted out just like them. So if they wanted to try.... they could. hehe...

And overall... it's just fun sometimes to geek out on the comic book style to create stats for those big threats.

I used to LOVE (still do actually) the old Marvel Super Hero (FACERIP) RPG specifically because they noted that some things can be "beyond" (there was a "Beyond" stat!) but overall they actually statted out Galactus, many Celestials, and many many other Cosmic beings.

I love that!!
It's just cooler to have fun seeing than saying.... "oh... just make them Beyond" and cop out.


Then again, I geek out at the fact that BASH! rules went as far to have a paragraph section on how to move/destroy a planet via the rules. If THAT is there... then I expect the rules for making a cosmic character capable of DOING that should also be there. 'cause it's AWESOME!!! LOL

-kev-

[urbwar]

Kev,

I don't disagree with you. I would point out that a game like Marvel did have it's own cosmic levels, much like BASH does. And for the most part, cosmic powers were (again, like BASH), open ended. You could do pretty much anything with Cosmic powers in that game. And, fighting cosmic characters was a *! You have someone with Shift X or Shift Y defense, and no way Thing is going to beat them with brute force.

However, that's not relevant to this situation (and I think you and I are both getting off track to the actual discussion), which is how to work summoning into allowing a character to summon an army. I still think giving it a Beyond rating would work best. If it's the only Beyond rating the character has, then it's not overpowering at all, since it's serving the purpose intended, which is to allow the user to summon an army.

Master-x. is the character just going to need to summon an army, or are they cosmically powered more than just that one ability?

[Master-X]

Wow thanks lads.. some really good points and idea's that will help to build "Legion" I'll post some of his exploits once he's made a appearance and let you know how the mechanics worked in game