Crown Guard vs Eugenics Brigade: game mechanics questions

[Saker]

I just ran BASH table top for the first time with my crew here. I favored going with how I understood the rules and a good pace over bogging down to understand exactly, especially because we only had one book. I've many questions and clarifications:

1. Repulse flew Flight 5 and carried a car with his telekinesis (tk). I understood tk to be like grab and carry. That's right? The car wouldn't be slowed to Mindx2 move, because that move is relative to the character not absolute, right?

2. L'Esprit went Ghost Form 3 in the flying car. I didn't have him fall out, because he grabbed (used his tk) the car and held on. Otherwise, he only has Flight 1 and couldn't keep up, right?

3. When they started throwing bombers (Size 2) with tk 4 & 5, I gave them area effect and +1DM. Was that all right? How far could they throw it? I guessed at straight knockback based on their damage

4. Having or not having Acrobatics is bigger than I imagined. Since area effects are always a flat 20 Difficulty, it makes a huge difference. Could they have chosen to treat the Size 2 thrown bombers as not an area effect, because their villain had a higher acrobatics than agility?

5. Does Confusion -4 put the -4 on Agility before or after the multiplier. I put it after like Dice Penalty, but I found the power weak. The power was built with area effect, but I still used Mind vs Mind. Is there a Mental acrobatics preventing auto effect?

6. Who chooses the direction of knockback? I drew a line between where the hero was and villain and put knockback along the vector moving away from the attacking character. It would make a huge difference you could angle your knockback and purposely hit people into the ground.

7. If I burned a Villain Die to snap one of my villains out of L'Esprit's Mind Controls, would he be immune for the rest of the issue? I didn't try this, but I need to know for next time.

8. It's tougher to balance a fight than I thought. Are there any guidelines?

9. How many hits due vehicles get? I gave my armored car 30, because it was military. But I was totally guessing.

10. Force fields that only envelope the character move with the character, right? That's how I played Repulse.

thanks for any insight

cheers

[Dustland]

4. Having or not having Acrobatics is bigger than I imagined. Since area effects are always a flat 20 Difficulty, it makes a huge difference. Could they have chosen to treat the Size 2 thrown bombers as not an area effect, because their villain had a higher acrobatics than agility?

Are you using the Burst rules on p39 to resolve these attacks? If so, a 20 doesn't negate the damage, just halves it. Not until 40+ does he escape completely. I don't see why you couldn't use the bombers as a weilded weapon though.

6. Who chooses the direction of knockback? I drew a line between where the hero was and villain and put knockback along the vector moving away from the attacking character. It would make a huge difference you could angle your knockback and purposely hit people into the ground.

I think you handled this correctly, otherwise knockback because very lethal instead of cinematic.

9. How many hits due vehicles get? I gave my armored car 30, because it was military. But I was totally guessing.

I know this one because I asked it last year when I first started running BASH! games. All vehicles have 100 hits. Can't say I like it all that much, but that's the ruling from Bashman.

On page 30 second paragraph under Super Vehicles it says "A SV has stats and power just like a character." I guess that's where you're supposed to get the 100 hits from, but it should be clearer.

And yes, the term Super Vehicle is used VERY loosely (ie meaning any vehicle).

8. It's tougher to balance a fight than I thought. Are there any guidelines?

I agree totally!!! That's why the next pbp will be more combat intensive with pregens so I can better see how the numbers work.

[Saker]

Are you using the Burst rules on p39 to resolve these attacks? If so, a 20 doesn't negate the damage, just halves it. Not until 40+ does he escape completely. I don't see why you couldn't use the bombers as a weilded weapon though.

Hmm. I'm an idiot and didn't read that carefully. That's why practice is the ultimate experience.

5. Does Confusion -4 put the -4 on Agility before or after the multiplier. I put it after like Dice Penalty, but I found the power weak.

OK I did this totally wrong. The -4 is BEFORE multipliers. MUCH more powerful

cheers

[Dustland]

OK I did this totally wrong. The -4 is BEFORE multipliers. MUCH more powerful

I always have to stop and think about this one when I read it...

Dice Penalties go BEFORE the multiplier and can be extremely powerful! (Weakness, Brawn (5) linked to Immobilize (5) is stupid powerful)

Results Penalties go AFTER the multiplier and are generally more scaled down.

[kevperrine]

Hey Saker!
I'll give my shot at some thoughts and answers, to help further the conversation for you.

Qualifier... I'm no rule expert, this is only my interpretation and may be completely wrong. hehe...

1. Repulse flew Flight 5 and carried a car with his telekinesis (tk). I understood tk to be like grab and carry. That's right? The car wouldn't be slowed to Mindx2 move, because that move is relative to the character not absolute, right?

Don't think this is a hard rule in any way. I think it would fall under the common sense and "what's fun" idea.
My Narration:
Yes. Repulse (or even another hero he might be carrying) using another power such as TK while in-flight like that would be at the relative speed of the flyer. So, no the TK speed would not be slowed down to it's MINDx2 Move. I'm thinking of it like the old Airplane/Jump analogy - if you're on an airplane in the front cabin and jump up, would you hit the back since the plane's moving so fast? No.

2. L'Esprit went Ghost Form 3 in the flying car. I didn't have him fall out, because he grabbed (used his tk) the car and held on. Otherwise, he only has Flight 1 and couldn't keep up, right?

My Narration:
Again - like the Airplane/Jump analogy - I would say you are correct. However... I could see Narrating that he'd have to make some sort of check (power check) to "hold steady" in Ghost Form in-place in the flying car IF he weren't grabbing on with his TK. But if I did this, I would definitely give the player a Hero Point for the abnormal complication.

3. When they started throwing bombers (Size 2) with tk 4 & 5, I gave them area effect and +1DM. Was that all right? How far could they throw it? I guessed at straight knockback based on their damage

My Narration:
Page 25 of the BASH! rules gives notes on Improvised Weapons. And it notes giving things an Area Effect is appropriate (based on Damage modifier, but I'd also say based on common sense).

The table on page 26 notes the Dmg modifiers for Light/Heavy improvised weapons. So, yes... I would say a 4 TK strength (lifting 10s of tons) would consider a Bomber HEAVY for the +1DM to one target (swinging the bomber like a baseball bat!).
OR at a x5 Dmg Medium Burst (5x5sq, the bomber being less than that in actual size, but the flying debris taking up the full 5x5). Throwing it up to 20sq! as the chart notes... (but I could also see using the Knockback rule as a base for range instead)
But...
I'd say the 5 TK (100s of tons) would treat a bomber as a LIGHT Improvised Weapon for the +0DM to one target. Or at a x5 Dmg (or x0DM, whichever is lower) Medium Burst. Throwing it up to 200sq!! as the chart notes... (but I could also see using the Knockback rule as a base for range instead)

Remember... though, the max damage an Improvised Weapon can do is limited to it's Hits + Soak.

4. Having or not having Acrobatics is bigger than I imagined. Since area effects are always a flat 20 Difficulty, it makes a huge difference. Could they have chosen to treat the Size 2 thrown bombers as not an area effect, because their villain had a higher acrobatics than agility?

My Narration:
As I noted (hinted at) above. I would say that yes, they could use the bomber as a WIELDED Improvised Weapon (like a baseball bat - especially with a TK power, that wouldn't have the bomber bend/break as they pick it up at one end).... instead of as a thrown Improvised Weapon.
Their choice.

Note though... the villain can THEN do the same. Good for the goose, good for the gander! Mwhahahahahah

5. Does Confusion -4 put the -4 on Agility before or after the multiplier. I put it after like Dice Penalty, but I found the power weak. The power was built with area effect, but I still used Mind vs Mind. Is there a Mental acrobatics preventing auto effect?

My Narration:
Page 6 of BASH! UE... bold-emphasis mine:

Dice Bonus/Penalty: A number that is added/subtracted from the 2d6 roll BEFORE multiplying. When written, the dice bonus comes before x. So a roll with a multiplier of 3 and a dice penalty of 2 is written -2x3.

As for the "Area of Effect" build option and a "Mental Acrobatics"... Here's what I'd reference and Narrate:

Page 47...

...for the confusion to linger in an Area of Effect (which you buy as an enhancement).
...
In the case of a lingering Area of Effect, there is no Mind Check or Contest- the Confusion effect is automatic, but ends as soon as one leaves the affected area.

So...
According to the RAW. No. No "Mental Acrobatics". No way to avoid it... Except NOT going in that area of effect, which I'd suggest the power-user to have some sort of indicator (like a gas description, etc... to alert the opponent as a "fair-play" and/or comic book style description. Otherwise, it's an invisible area that they might bumble into... That might not be as fun.
If so...
You might explain a "Mental Acrobatics" you're looking for with this actual rule:

Page 39...

Most powers with the Burst effect do not roll to hit the targets.
...
If the power is something Mental, or something that cannot be divided, such as Daze or Immobilization, then the attacker makes a single attack roll, and all the targets (or each group of minions) make their own separate defense roll against it.

So. Yes. A contested MIND Defense roll. Or (optionally/theoretically) it could be an AGILITY Defense roll if the Confusion Area of Effect is described as something the opponent could see/smell or otherwise know the area - then they could try NOT to move into it physically.

6. Who chooses the direction of knockback? I drew a line between where the hero was and villain and put knockback along the vector moving away from the attacking character. It would make a huge difference you could angle your knockback and purposely hit people into the ground.

My Narration:
Direction of knockback... for me as Narrator - is common sense. If I don't agree with the players ("but I wanted to do a haymaker up into his jaw and knock him straight UP in the air, not across the room!") and if they didn't PREVIOUSLY describe the action/hit (before the die rolls). I would rule what I think is fair or common sense.
Alternatively. If I disagreed with the player's interpretation of where the Knockback would send them flying... I would offer that they spend a Hero Die to make it happen that way.

I think specifically describing something in a cool way. I wanna knock him through the street into the sewers (before the die rolls) is FUN.
So...
I'd either say... the player can either choose to automatically knock them into the ground (no extra checks) if the Hit/Dmg were good enough to do so and if the street could cave in to the subway or something... The opponent would be knocked back the distance and be prone, but NOT have anymore damage given for going through the street.
OR
If they wanted to make a skill check to make sure that specific knockback would happen, and ensure some extra damage for going through the street... I'd either have them make a straight BRAWN or AGILITY check depending on the situation (though NOT an Acrobatics skill check, since almost everyone takes that) or another appropriate skill.
OR
Have them spend a Hero Die to say it happened that way.

Then also....
Sometimes as Narrator, I like to "reward" players for cool descriptions OR I like to end a fight (that I know is only slogging the game pace down - i.e. the Villain has 12 more Hits left but might last 1-2 more rounds, but be inevitable to go down)... In those cases I SURPRISE the PC-Hero with this as an option and extra damage. Completely based on the scene, situation and how often I've done this before. (not doing it too much to "spoil" them, hehehe)

7. If I burned a Villain Die to snap one of my villains out of L'Esprit's Mind Controls, would he be immune for the rest of the issue? I didn't try this, but I need to know for next time.

My Narration:
According to Mind Control rules
Page 49...

Your control over the target lasts until you fail in a Mind contest against the target. Once you fail, you cannot successfully command that target again for the rest of the issue. All targets you have affected are freed of your control at the end of the Story-Arc.

So neither THAT rule OR rules for "Never Surrender" (Advantage - page 11) and "Never Say Die" (Hero Die use - page 20) note that "snapping out of it" is different from succeeding in a check.
However.
My personal opinion is that just spending a Hero Die or your Advantage use for the entire ISSUE to "snap out of it" is a little unfair to the spirit of the rules FOR that player (or NPC Villain) using Mind Control. To have them be "immune" without ACTUALLY succeeding in a check seems unfair to me.
So...
I would narrate that until you succeed in the check as written in the Mind Control rules - you are NOT immune to being Mind Controlled.
I'd also say/remind that - You CAN spend as many Hero Die as you want to "snap out of it" though if you get Mind Controlled AGAIN.

8. It's tougher to balance a fight than I thought. Are there any guidelines?

My Narration:
I got nothing here except:
Gut instinct (from GMing lots or reading lots of comics)
+
Experience with the rules
+
The ability to ad-lib and fairly make up (on the spot) additions to the villain/situation's abilities to up their die roll scores
+
Ability to be fair to the players (with anything you increase ad libbing) for powers and/or Dice Bonuses/Penalties in-game.


Supers RPGs (of all games) is, in my experience, one of the HARDEST to "balance" encounters. But at the same time one of the easiest to be the game master, if you're familiar with the pace and style of Superhero Comic Book opposition.
Balance via numbers and rules for Supers RPGs is very hard. Because one Villain build vs. one Hero build may or may not "show" the actual threat value of a character.

Consider... think about the old New Mutants character Cyber with his main power being Linguistics!?! Technically he's more expensive in character point cost than an average Thug... BUT in-game it's likely that that cheaply built thug has a well higher to Hit number and Damage ability than Doug. He's built on more points with his non-combat powers, so that doesn't help balance at all.

So...
Other than the above. (for a rule/numbers crunchy real answer), you could always look at your PC-Heroes numbers...
Each PC's highest combat:
- to Hit numbers (and if they have bursts)
- Damage output
- their Defense rolls (Agility and Mind)
- any extras for defense like Mind Spikes, Danger Sense, etc...
- and their soaking ability
- as well as any healing abilities

Compare those to your villain's numbers...

Then consider how many Hero Points/Dice you're awarding (which can/will bump those numbers above). And how many Setback Points and Villain Dice do you generally use.


But overall and in general... you can look at Character Point build costs as a very very rough guideline. But powers aren't leveraged off that cost spent in BASH! ... so (as with the Cyber vs. Thug example above) that guideline may be inaccurate.

9. How many hits due vehicles get? I gave my armored car 30, because it was military. But I was totally guessing.

My Narration:
I participated in a thread about this... Not sure where it is on the BASH! Forums... do a search if you wanna look for it.
But overall I *THOUGHT* the ruling (by BASHMAN) was that it was whomever was DRIVING/PILOTING the vehicle determined the HIT's value it had at the time.

If a PC-Hero (or main Villain) is driving a normal van, it's HIT's are the full 100 pts.
If a Minion is driving the exact same van (or they switch seats with the Villain!) the HIT's are equal to that Minion. And if the vehicle has taken damage already as one or the other HITs, you just extrapolate the percentage of HITs it's taken and assign the same percentage to the *new* HITs of the vehicle.

That said...
I would narrate it as follows - No matter WHO is driving:

- a "super vehicle" (one made specifically for a Hero/Villain) has 100 HITs.

- any non-super vehicle, even armored tanks, etc... have a "Minion" level of HITs. Which I determine as appropriate to the "level" of the vehicle. Looking at the chart for Minions on page 68. So a tank would (IMO) be a "Dangerous" level minion and have 40 HITs.

10. Force fields that only envelope the character move with the character, right? That's how I played Repulse

My Narration:
Unless bought with some sort of Enhancement - Extra Effect. Yes.



Does that help?
Anyone disagree with my Narrations above? I'm curious if so and why...
-kev-

[Saker]

Thanks Kev. We need more practice.