Basic Action Super Heroes!

If a character took Immunity to kinetic, piercing and slashing damage would they be pretty much immuned to all physical damage? If it was resistance, Physical damage being halfed.

Which Immunities/Resistances should a character wanting to survive or withstand "Space" need? Also for resistance to "Space", what kind of environmental damages would you apply?

Would it be feasable to say 5pts of immunity could make a character immune to either all physical or all energy damage(not including psionic damage)?

I don't know if I'd allow someone to be immune to physical damage - Armor and Ghost Form are there for a reason. That said, I could see allowing Immunity to Knock-Back. I could also see Armor: Extra Effect vs. Cutting or bludgeoning, etc.

Space: Immunity Suffocation & Vacuum. I'd also add resistance to Cold & Radiation.

As for what the ambient effects of being in space are... hmmm. I'd probably look it up in BASH! Sci-Fi and convert it as best I could.

So the extra effect would make Armor 3 cost 4 pts and make you effectivly Armor 5 vs Bludgoning and cutting attacks?

No- it would be Bludgeoning or Cutting. I suppose you could take 2 Enhancements though, one each for Bludgeoning and Cutting. What it really depends on is what the Narrator wants to allow. If you're the narrator, then you can decide that's how you want to do it- just give your players the same wiggle room and everything's fine.

BASHMAN wrote:I don't know if I'd allow someone to be immune to physical damage - Armor and Ghost Form are there for a reason.

BASHMAN...
Looking through old questions, concerns and errata I found this. One question about this point you made.

Juggernaut.

Wouldn't he be a perfect example of being Immune to Physical Damage?
I completely understand that you COULD build him with just a high Armor but that seems like it's not in-line with the entire point of the character.

So, how would you suggest representing Juggy?
Would you say that this would be an appropriate use of Immunity, or would you stat it differently still?


thanks!
-kev-

Juggernaut.

Wouldn't he be a perfect example of being Immune to Physical Damage?
I completely understand that you COULD build him with just a high Armor but that seems like it's not in-line with the entire point of the character.

He's not immune to physical damage, he's immune to immobilization. He can take a ton of damage to the point where there is almost certainly an easier way to deal with him. I would certainly give him high brawn probably 4 in combination with boost for soak to bring the total up to five, and armor 3 to give him a x8 soak, which is nigh impossible to over come at least routinely enough to take him out of the fight.
We see Wolverine and the likes draw blood fairly often, it is possible to hurt him.

Some characters are obviously immune to certain types of damage. I mean, bullets bouncing off superman, blades breaking on him (unless he's under a red sun)!

I did that with my adaption of Wonder Man; he's immune to bullets and non-magical blades, but that's it. He can still be hit in hand to hand, TK, battered with a car, lamp post, etc. But if you shoot or stab him, you're wasting your time. I find it totally appropriate, and in genre (and supported by the description of his powers). I feel using armor just didn't cut it, cause if the die roll is good enough, he'd take damage from something he isn't supposed to. That just feels wrong to me

BeardedDork wrote: He's not immune to physical damage, he's immune to immobilization. He can take a ton of damage to the point where there is almost certainly an easier way to deal with him.

Not true.
In every story I've ever read featuring Juggernaut, and his Marvel Universe comic listing, and all official RPG write-ups that have been done, and according to the online Marvel Database.

Juggernaut IS invulnerable to physical damage. Quoting from the Marvel Database:

Superhuman Durability
Cain is virtually impregnable to all forms of conventional physical injury regardless of magnitude or intensity. Although Cain is able to be harmed by exceedingly high levels of mental or mystical attacks, these attacks have rarely been shown to cause any permanent damage. When his force field was temporarily absorbed by Thor's Hammer, Juggernaut's natural durability proved to be sufficient to exchange blows with Thor

BeardedDork wrote: We see Wolverine and the likes draw blood fairly often, it is possible to hurt him.

No. Wolverine can/does draw blood from everyone up to and including the HULK, but not Juggernaut.

If so... Where? When?
In all my reading of comics featuring Juggernaut I do not recall an instance. I may be incorrect.
Please give me a comic book reference?



PS... I like your explanation for having a massively high resistance, (that makes me consider ideas for other characters) but that's just NOT what Juggernaut is, in my opinion.

urbwar wrote:I find it totally appropriate, and in genre (and supported by the description of his powers). I feel using armor just didn't cut it, cause if the die roll is good enough, he'd take damage from something he isn't supposed to. That just feels wrong to me

100% agree.
This is one of my MAJOR sticking points with a FLAW of M&M3. In the DCA rules it IS POSSIBLE for Superman to take damage from a tough (but normal) thug with a sword.
I figured that out in THIS thread on the M&M forums (before I found the "light" and came to BASH! not long ago! hehe)
It's ridiculous.


-kev-

Happened all the time in the late '80s early '90s, when I did most of my comic book collecting, I would have to dig to the very back of the space under my stairs to get issue numbers for you, and I'm not going to, you can either believe me or not as you see fit.

BeardedDork wrote:Happened all the time in the late '80s early '90s, when I did most of my comic book collecting, I would have to dig to the very back of the space under my stairs to get issue numbers for you, and I'm not going to, you can either believe me or not as you see fit.

Add the early 80s to late 90s (and in the last 5 years) and that's when I did most of my comic book collecting. I'm not a big X-fanboy or anything, but they were always one of the things I read. I just don't remember or agree with what you're remembering.

BD man... It *may* have happened with some bad writer/artist (McFarlane? Liefield?) making a mistake.... Comic writers don't "conform" to the "rules of canon" all the time - they tell stories to excite and surprise, sometimes poorly. But I still don't think this ever happened.

It would be like Hulk being able to pick up Mjolnir - it just SHOULD NOT happen.

I'd honestly love to see/know the issue numbers. I'm happy being proven wrong. I don't think it will happen though.


But my point being - my suggestion here (for BASH! stats on Juggy & arguing FOR Immunity: Physical Damage) is the fact that his power is NOT armor. It's a Force Field that layers on top of his skin out about an inch or so.
So there's no way blood could be drawn. A character like Wolverine isn't cutting Juggernaut, they're hitting his FF - which is "impregnable to all forms of conventional physical injury regardless of magnitude or intensity".

Wolverine's claws are adimantium - the strongest material in the Marvel U. And cast at a razor sharp edge - THAT is the way he can cut the HULK's skin or other "armored" characters.
But he can't "cut" through Magneto's magnetic force field. He couldn't "cut" through Sue Storm's force field. And he can't "cut" through Juggernaut's magic force field.


I won't argue with you. Believe what you want.
But from all president and accounts (that I'm aware of), Juggernaut is the PERFECT example to allow this Immunity, if anyone would have it - he would.

And lastly... In the M&M system (my other favorite supers RPG) the immunity ability DOES allow physical (and mental) immunity. They're extremely costly (like 40 pts for one alone). I know BASH! is not M&M (and I'm happy about that!) but it does seem like a good precedent for characters like this.


So, any other thoughts on Immunity: Physical as a BASH! power?

-kev-

The problem I have with Immunity: Physical as a game mechanic (not as a character concept) is that the game has no hard limit on the amount of damage, at least under the Cosmic rules. I guess if you ignore Cosmic rules, it is capped at x12 (5 stat + 5 special attack + 2 from an Extra Effect).

For a truly invulnerable character, that even a cosmic entity like the Celestials just cannot hurt, you really need a Beyond rating (page 93). It's a plot device, not a power. I'd even allow a player to take it, if they really want it, as long as they can still be vulnerable in other ways (an average mental defense, a strength that isn't so high they cannot be bound, etc.). For an NPC, the cost doesn't really matter. For a PC who took it as part of a character concept, I might charge them one half of the campaign point level, so 13 pts in a Street Level game or 20 pts in a World Class, etc. It should be the central facet of their characters (power-wise, anyway).

If they aren't that invulnerable and could still be hurt by cosmic attacks x15, x20 or x50 damage, but are invulnerable to conventional weapons (x2 to x10), etc. then a version of the M&M Impervious advantage might be suitable. Something like:

Impervious (2 or 5 pts)
For 2 points, you are impervious against attacks that have a damage multiplier less than or equal to half your soak multiplier; they can't even roll and try to get doubles. For 5 points, you are impervious against attacks that have a damage multiplier less than or equal to your soak multiplier.

I'm not sure about the point costs for Impervious, that's just off the top of my head. I'd want to give that some more thought before I set a final value to it.

Hmm. Or the pricing for Impervious might be 1 pt per multiplier you can ignore, regardless of your soak. So more like:

Impervious (1-10 pts)
You take no damage from attacks with a damage multiplier equal to or less than your level in this power. Attacks with a higher damage multiplier can still damage you normally, although you can still soak it using your normal soak roll.

Depending on your view of having higher Impervious than you do Soak, you could put a max level equal to your soak multiplier, or have it cost double for any levels over your soak multiplier, something like that.

kevperrine wrote:
So, any other thoughts on Immunity: Physical as a BASH! power?

-kev-

Well, you couldn't just take Immunity:Physical as the power is written. You have to take it for different types of physical (like I did with Immunity: Bullets and Immunity: Bladed weapons for Wonder Man). It would end up costing more, but that makes sense, given how much you gain with the power (imho)

Lindharin wrote: Impervious (1-10 pts)
You take no damage from attacks with a damage multiplier equal to or less than your level in this power. Attacks with a higher damage multiplier can still damage you normally, although you can still soak it using your normal soak roll.

Neat Lindharin! I like this version best (simpler, more elegant). Except I'd call it "Impregnable" - because that's a neat word used in Marvel Database's power for Juggy AND (more important) it's different than other RPG's power names.

Lindharin wrote: Depending on your view of having higher Impervious than you do Soak, you could put a max level equal to your soak multiplier, or have it cost double for any levels over your soak multiplier, something like that.

Okay. I'm trying to think. Would there be a USE for having a (physical) Soak then if you had this new power anyway?

I'm not familiar enough with the system yet to think of one. But either way... I could see still needing a good Soak (if you're a character like Juggernaut) for the times his "Impregnable" force field were nullified, drained, bypassed, or down in some way.

As for cost...
What about using the "Cosmic" cost rule for anything over your Soak. 5pts per level? I like to go back to a rule already in place when possible to have consistency. But again, I can't say I know the system well enough to judge is that's a better balance/cost - either on the good or bad side.


-kev-

I could get behind Immunity: Slashing (or Piercing, or whatnot) but Impervious seems way too good for the cost.

Both options take away something I love about the system too: If you're seriously outclassed, you can always roll the dice and see if fortune says otherwise. These options just take the fun of randomness out of the equation.

Just my two cents worth.