Can Swift Strike/Paired Weapons combine with Special Attack?

[Deecely]

If I have a non-ranged kick-puncher who punches and kicks with a Special Attack 3, can extra attacks per page be gained by combining with the Intense Training powers Swift Strike and/or Paired Weapons?

If it were an energy blast Special Attack, I could see it not making sense conceptually. But since it's someone striking with their fists/feet (though I guess it could apply to melee weapons, too), it would seem to be eligible for these Intense Training powers.

Sorry if this has been discussed to death already. I searched the forums but couldn't find this answer exactly.

[BASHMAN]

By RAW, the answer is no. However, you can get around this by adding the "Esoteric Training" Enhancement to his "Kickpuncher" Special Attack.

[Deecely]

Does this suggest that unarmed strikes generally can't be considered "Special Attacks"?

I had also given this character the "variable" enhancement, to move around the dice modifiers between hit and damage, and even area effects (not range, though, because these are fists/feet we're talking about).

Did I do this wrong? Is "weapon technique (unarmed)" the only option for kickpunchers?

[MrJupiter]

Does this suggest that unarmed strikes generally can't be considered "Special Attacks"?

I had also given this character the "variable" enhancement, to move around the dice modifiers between hit and damage, and even area effects (not range, though, because these are fists/feet we're talking about).

Did I do this wrong? Is "weapon technique (unarmed)" the only option for kickpunchers?

Special Attacks can definitely be designated as unarmed strikes, but that power is not part of the INTENSE TRAINING POWERS category and it must normally be considered separately from the benefits of that group. BASHMAN is saying that, by adding the benefits of the Esoteric Training enhancement to the "Kickpuncher" Special Attack power, you can bypass that barrier (and thus use the hero's Swift Strike power to allow that extra strike).

... and Kick-Puncher strikes again! (LOL)

[Deecely]

I get it. Though it sounds like for the low, low price of one character point (esoteric training), I could break the game with this character. Since it's for my main NPC in a game that I'm running, I'm going to say "no" to myself on this.

Good to know, though, that I wasn't entirely wrong in making his mighty Kickpunching! as a Special Attack.

[MrJupiter]

I get it. Though it sounds like for the low, low price of one character point (esoteric training), I could break the game with this character. Since it's for my main NPC in a game that I'm running, I'm going to say "no" to myself on this.

Good to know, though, that I wasn't entirely wrong in making his mighty Kickpunching! as a Special Attack.

I hear you on this one. I've done this on a few occasions myself (like super-strong characters with the Growing power - they really should be able to lift more than the RAW allow). After all, that's what the grand tradition of house rules is all about!

[BASHMAN]

That's why Esoteric Training the Narrator is encouraged to say "no". Esoteric Training super punch? Yes. Esoteric Training teleportation? No.

It doesn't really "break the game" because that 1 character point is paying the price to be allowed to combine those abilities. If you use this with several powers, yes, you can "get away" with something; but you really aren't because it is an opportunity cost. Those character points could have been used to have higher stats or buy stronger powers, or just pay for Super Speed 5 instead of Swift Strike and Paired Weapons.

That said, as a Narrator I'd let Special Attack 1 or 2 be Esoteric Training, and be much more cautious about 3 or more ranks.

[Baelor]

"That said, as a Narrator I'd let Special Attack 1 or 2 be Esoteric Training, and be much more cautious about 3 or more ranks."

I like this. It fits better than allowing massive power levels, and suits the 'non-super' power theme suggested by Esoteric Training.