Basic Action Super Heroes!

I think I get it...
But having not played an example, I'd like to hear thoughts.

I'm looking to understand (or explore rather) more about how BASH! seems to handle a 40 point character and a 25 point character in the same team.

What are the various rule points to allow this to work well?

If I'm seeing it correctly, basically, the GM declares a point range for the game (20 points), and if you go over that, he just gets a pool of personal Setback points to use against you equal to the difference.
OR
If you have a higher level campaign (35 points) and a player does not spend all their points they get the equivalent (per game) in Hero Points.


It seems like a very simple mechanic, as well as a very elegant solution to having someone like Thor riding shotgun in the same team as The Wasp and Captain America.


Is that the core?
Am I getting it? Is there more? Is there other granularity in that?

For example...
HOW does a Narrator answer the question of "challenging" the THOR character and not just wipe out WASP all-together?
How well does this balance during the game play?
Is there anything I'm missing?


Having only played one session so far (with all low level, 23 pt. PCs) we didn't see any of that yet.

I'd like to think more about it.
I'd love to hear your examples of play or your theories on how to best make this all work. All in effort that I can consider this WHEN I finally get to plan a longer term campaign.

any thoughts?
-kev-

You are getting it- Hero Points make the main difference there.

I have run games where the Thunder God barely dented the giant hunter robot, while a rakish mutant with a penchant for blowing things up by infusing them with kinetic energy gave said robot a deadly "hot-foot" that ended up blowing it up, and knocking the aformentioned god of thunder back quite a ways.

The less powerful characters have a lot of points to spend, and points equate to dice- and the Hero Dice are powerful.

If you want to increase the whole disparity of power thing in a group, see the "Teen Heroes" section on that.

In my opinion, there's one other element to this that I've noticed when looking at the archetypes in the book. Higher point characters don't necessarily have a huge improvement in their combat multipliers (dodge, soak, attack, damage). I'm in a rush right now so I can't write it all up, but I wrote a post about it in another thread when I first noticed it. The linked post and the next 4 or 5 discuss it briefly. It's not a cap like the M&M power levels, but I like to think of it as a "sweet spot" that characters generally fall into, and it doesn't really matter if they're Street-Level or World Class. Combine that with the Hero Point/Dice setup for various point characters, and it explains (IMO, anyway) why BASH seems so good at supporting characters with different point totals in the same team.

Well, here's my two cents worth (I'll point out up front I have no idea who Wasp is, not a fan of comics ).

In addition to what BASHMAN said about Hero Dice being a big deal (huge in my opinion, though fortune can always * you), I'd like to make a point about roles the characters play:

1) If you have a 40 pt and 25 pt character making essentially the same character, then yes the 25 pt character will be overshadowed most of the time (until the Hero Points/Dice get thrown in the mix which probably won't happen every encounter).

2) Now if you have two characters playing different roles, it doesn't matter so much about the point spread. For example, if the 40 pts goes to making a "brick" and the 25 pts goes to making a "mentalist" that specializes in reading minds, does the brick's ability to whip * really overshadow or take away from the mentalist's role as the telepath?

Hope that makes sense and helps!

True that!

Now also, as far as combat goes, I can make a 25 pt character who is a total combat machine that can beat up a bunch of 40pt characters. The downside is he's not good for much else other than beating people up.

In general, though, that's not the idea behind the game. While generally, a 40pt character will be more powerful, the real advantage is that they are often more well-rounded to a variety of tasks, while a 25pt character may well be focused on a narrow range of abilities.

Sure, nobody kicks butt like the god of thunder, but he can also teleport to the land of the gods and conjure up weather.

Here is a more specific response to your questions:

For example...
HOW does a Narrator answer the question of "challenging" the THOR character and not just wipe out WASP all-together?
How well does this balance during the game play?
Is there anything I'm missing?

At the start of the session, figure out how hard you think it will be. Assign a "point scale" for that day's game. So if you have a 45pt thunder god fighting an equivilent opponent, you might say it's a 45pt game. The 45pt thunder god gets no Hero Points, and the 25pt insect girl gets 20, which is equal to 4 Hero Dice!!!

Run the fight. Insect-Girl may likely get her clock cleaned... if it weren't for her ability to use these Hero Dice and Hero Points for great effect. Suddenly she is power-stunting Attack Weak Point, and doing horrendous damage that she normally doesn't do. While this evil god is able to hit the thunder god easy enough, his axe keeps whiffing when he attacks insect girl (those Hero Points sure have been handy).

I've run scenarios like this many a time, and never been disappointed by the 50pt bad * owning the scene while the 25pt characters sit on the sidelines uselessly. It's always been possible for the less powerful characters to make good use of Hero Dice (and Team-Up Actions) to great effect. Not just for damage rolls, but for power stunts, interrupt actions, skill checks (defusing the nuke that is counting down to zero), etc.

BASHMAN wrote:Here is a more specific response to your questions:

I've run scenarios like this many a time, and never been disappointed by the 50pt bad * owning the scene while the 25pt characters sit on the sidelines uselessly.

Okay, this brings me to another thought.

In building stats for a team like:

Justice League: Green Arrow to Superman
or
Avengers: Ant-man to Thor


In your builds (or suggesting to the players of a campaign) would you suggest or note that for the concept, a player MIGHT want to consider building to that lower point.
Meaning...
In statting up one of those type teams how would you present the "Character Points" to the players?
Would you:

- Explain the idea for the campaign (an Avengers team)

- tell them that they may build ANY type character they want as long as the idea could fit nicely in the Avenger's comic series.

- Would you even (need to?) mention "character points" or the "campaign level"?


It seems to me that when presented with "you have xx points" many players will build to that point level, using all but a few (if not all).

How would you get across to the player group that you would LIKE to see varying power levels. Without pigeon-holing any one player to make them feel like they need to up or lower their power level to better match the others in the group. To not overshadow or be overshadowed?


This is really REALLY interesting to me to develop a way that a Narrator should approach the character creation session.

color me intrigued!
-kev-

- Explain the idea for the campaign (an Avengers team)

- tell them that they may build ANY type character they want as long as the idea could fit nicely in the Avenger's comic series.

- Would you even (need to?) mention "character points" or the "campaign level"?

I would explain what the "cap" is for points, but remind them about Hero Points. In my group, I had run a street level game, 25pt builds being the cap. I had one player make a 30 pt character, one make a 22pt character, and the rest made 25 pt characters. I ended up running the game at 30 pts (I like to give 5 Hero Points over whatever the cap is). So they didn't all build to the cap- some went over (w/ my permission) and some when below it.

I usually tell people to "build the character first, count up the points when you're done". If some are below or above the cap, I'm good with it.

BASHMAN wrote:I ended up running the game at 30 pts (I like to give 5 Hero Points over whatever the cap is). .

BASHMAN, I've read you say this before. I'm a little confused by the statement though. Can you clarify?

What do you mean by "I like to give 5 HPs over the cap"?

Do you mean you set a cap is that for Character Points for players' "Character LEVEL", then you actually USE that +5 for the "Campaign Level"?

And if that's it... how come? Are you assuming that at least one player WILL go over the set "Character Level"?
Also...
If you set the Campaign Level at 5 over the base Character Level does that not ever get to be "too much" for the PCs? Meaning - that your challenges can be 5 pts over PCs?

Or maybe a BETTER question.
I'm SO used to USING "Encounter Levels" (D&D3-4) and "Campaign/Character Level" (M&M) that I naturally plan/assume that the Campaign Level is what I can (or should) build as goals for adventure ideas toward.

Not every story and villain will max out the Campaign or Encounter Level, some will be above - some will be below. But the AVERAGE is the that chosen Level.

Do you NOT use BASH! Campaign Level in the same way?


PS... I'm slowly learning (correctly I believe) that BASH! is unlike other rule systems in "balance". I'm seeing that their IS an inherent balance in the rules. But the WIDE result roll chances (with multiplication and doubles and Hero Points) all add up to an amazingly WIDE ability for lower level characters to be able to CHALLENGE higher levels.
This is very interesting to me.
I need to learn and test it more before I can comment to know if that's exactly true - but it seems like the direction.

Would you folks that HAVE played lots agree with some of that?

-kev-

Do you mean you set a cap is that for Character Points for players' "Character LEVEL", then you actually USE that +5 for the "Campaign Level"?

Yes. I do it because I want most of the players to have access to Hero Points, with 5 being a good amount because it equates to a hero die. It's not because I Assume people will go over the cap, it's because I want them to have Hero Points to start with.

I don't have any mathematical formula that I use when deciding how many Hero Points to assign for a session. I don't "guage" the combats to match the PCs abilities- I just up the Hero Points if things seem especially tough, and lower them when things seem to be easy.

I do it the same way as BASHMAN, my one experience of using a villain over my "campaign cap" I put out a pool communal hero points to make up the difference. It worked ok, It's not how I would handle it in the future.

BeardedDork wrote:I do it the same way as BASHMAN, my one experience of using a villain over my "campaign cap" I put out a pool communal hero points to make up the difference. It worked ok, It's not how I would handle it in the future.

heheh.... so how WOULD you handle it in the future?

-kev-

I would just raise the point value of the Issue itself creating a pool just seemed to have the effect of the inherently less effective characters sitting on the sidelines, while all the heavy lifting was done by one or two characters. I believe one player used almost the entire pool by himself.

Hey! Here's a neat example I gave to one of my pals on this topic. Thought you guys might dig it.


If I were making a Justice League Unlimited game, I'd show everyone a bit of the cartoon, this ones a great example showing Green Arrow battling alongside Captain Atom and Supergirl!! Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY3nEo6bfR8

Justice League Unlimited
Season 1: "Initiation"
The League expands their operations, enlisting new recruits across the globe. The newest of these is Green Arrow, who has repeatedly refused to respond to invitations to join the League. He is therefore pulled to the rebuilt, and much larger, Watchtower by teleport. Opting against joining, he hitches a ride back to Earth with the team of Green Lantern, Captain Atom and Supergirl, who have been sent on a mission to stop a giant, uncontrolled, nuclear-power machine in an unnamed Asian country. Supergirl learns about the value of having a solid mission plan, while Green Arrow is given the opportunity to see how his brand of heroism can be of use to the Justice League.

Clearly - to compensate for being in a episode with Captain Atom and Supergirl (both KO'd at that point!) he had loads of Hero Points to spend and power-stunting Attack Weak Point, and doing horrendous damage to Brimstone that he normally can't do. (not to mention the CRAZY possibilities of a core mechanic being multiplication for a Difficulty Check combined with the exploding dice chance!!)


I love that!!

Any other examples (from animated shows, live-action movies or even *gasp* comic books? hehe)

-kev-

I ran a game where the Archer in the group put down the 100' tall robot teddybear while the "Champion of Justice" got knocked off the map by it- so it does happen. I always build archers w/ Attack Weak Point, though, the Hero Die was used for a damage roll.