Basic Action Super Heroes!

I'm new to BASH, but I'm liking what I see alot.
I have one concern, it's a minor one... but I'd like to hear what folks that have used the system alot think.

call it...
"Flavor", style, feeling, themes, etc...

I am concerned that BASH might be a little more "cartoony" than I like my Super Hero RPGs to feel.

Don't get me wrong, I actually love the Bruce Timm-like style that BASH's design has. But I like that as a "campaign style" NOT an overall system/RPG style.

I am a very visual, image-centric kind of player/GM...
So I am concerned that with BASH's overall layout/style specifically using the Timm-style, that the entire game system and all campaigns I were to try would unintentionally *default* to that "Animated" flavor.
While I really love that for some campaign ideas. I don't like it for others.

It's hard to explain but when I see games with imagery like this, it really sets my "style" mind into that pattern. Truth & Justice (a system I would love to try more) did this, but with a cartoony art not on the level of quality that BASH has. The recent ICONS has that Cartoony style, but I'm not interested in the rules to even look into it more. The indie game "Supercrew" does this cartoony style to the hilt and while I LOVE it, and love the simple system - I'd still have a very hard time playing anything more serious and NOT "cartoony" with it, simply due to the imagery...

I can't explain it. It's just how my mind works.


So I worry.
Can I plan and GM a campaign with BASH that is on the more serious and even gritty side of comics? Can I plan for a dark street level "Daredevil" style game? Will it "feel" right? Are there any rule adjustments I need to consider?

It's weird...
Overall with a supers RPG system like Mutants & Masterminds, the artwork is not overly cartoony, so I "feel" like I can run any grittier game and/or a more "animated" style game.
But it's the opposite with a style like BASH.

So in the end...
I want to use BASH, but I'd like some advice or thoughts on changing my style or mindset for making it work and feel right.


Any thoughts?
-kev-

The art has nothing to do with how the game is run. If you read the GM section, there are guidelines for running Pulp, Golden Age, even Iron Age games. It can do gritty. Sure you could play it for laughs, but you could do the same with any other supers game (long ago, I ran a comedic supers game using Champions. Ah the memories). The first supplement features a hero returning from the dead to get revenge on the bad guys (and not in nice ways). I'd say that is pretty gritty myself.

But since you brought up the art: The Timm animated stuff wasn't not really "cartoony". Many episodes of shows were very adult oriented, and in the Justice League shows, villains did die. That is not what I consider "cartoony". Superfriends was cartoony, the DCAU was not. Even Batman: Brave & The Bold can get serious. In a recent episode, the Spectre turned a villain into swiss cheese, and let the rats that once served him eat him (and he was aware of this too). How is that "cartoony"?

I've run a Shadowrun inspired game and a World of Darkness style game. The only rule that I didn't use was the knockback rule, it didn't fit the tone, and some of the minion rules. Otherwise, my guys had a blast and the "tone of the rulebook" wasn't an issue.

The only problem I've encountered is finding the "sweet spot" of how to challenge players without beating the holy heck out of them every encounter. Some of that comes down to keeping folks from trying to min/max or break the game.

If you want, you could draw down the Hits each character has (100 goes a long way in this game!) to give a grittier feel and set a cap on Soak and/or Dodge so characters consistantly take a licking.

Otherwise, it's up to the storyteller and the players to maintain the feel in my opinion; one goofball player can ruin the darkest story, and some absurd story arc can kill even the best run campaign (I'm looking at you Stephen King).

It is all in the imagination and how you set the theme. Personally I never let the art influance the settings I wish to express. If that is the case, find different artwork to substitute. "Erol Otis". I would not be playing any game today if I paid his early artwork any mind. Same thing goes for playing and GMing "imagination". Just try not to let the Game's illustration's influance your own creative juices.

This is a tough one, because it is a mental "hangup" (I don't mean that in a bad way). One good thing is that you recognize it, so maybe it can be countered.

You say you are visually oriented, so one idea that comes to mind is focusing on alternate images. Let's say you want to run a street-level gritty game. You could find pictures of the characters/NPCs FIRST, before trying to stat them up, so when you are thinking of game stats you have the right visual frame of reference before you crack the book. I'm not sure if you have an artistic bent, or if you normally take the time to find/make character images, but that may help a lot. We use a variety of sites to find character art, but deviantart.com is one of our most successful resources.

Once you have a strong visual image that speaks to the character you want to make, then you go into the book and just use it as a reference for the stats, powers, etc.

Does that seem like it might help? If not, I'll see if I can come up with any other ideas instead.

Oh, and definitely take a look at the genre sections for Iron Age, maybe Fantasy or Sci-Fi too, things that either support the feel you are looking for or shift the rules into a little different genre, something that might bypass your instinctive response to the book's visual tone for supers.

I've used the system for a Call of Cthulu style game and it works very well even for that. It can be used for anything you would like to use it for.

BeardedDork wrote:I've used the system for a Call of Cthulu style game and it works very well even for that. It can be used for anything you would like to use it for.

CoC??
How'd you do that?

Wasn't the "super" parts of the system just "in the way" at that point? It seems like you'd have to "remove" SO MUCH to get down to CoC Investigator level that there'd be nothing left of the "rules".

What did you alter/change to make this work well for THAT low/gritty of a game? And how'd you do Sanity?

This has my interest - because if I know what is on the far far end of altering/removing from the rules to FIT a game like CoC, then I suppose I could figure rule-alterations for any comic setting... no matter how low-powered or gritty.


thanks

kevperrine wrote: CoC??
How'd you do that?

Wasn't the "super" parts of the system just "in the way" at that point? It seems like you'd have to "remove" SO MUCH to get down to CoC Investigator level that there'd be nothing left of the "rules".

You can do non-supers characters very easily within the rules. I was designing a few pulpish characters for my setting. One was a G-Man who had nothing but skills and Intense Training Powers (which really aren't powers, but special combat skills of the cinematic variety). Even magic would be easy, as you'd add the concentration limitation to any power. At that low end of the spectrum, you can get make CoC like characters easily (granted, pulp heroes might be a little tougher, but you could always restrict them to just skills and advantages/disadvantages if you wanted to)

Since BASH has also been used for both Sci-Fi and Fantasy, I don't see why it can't be used for Horror as well. I'm actually surprised Bashman hasn't started on a BASH Horror rpg by by now

Only one of the characters had anything other than an intense training power the Professor had Omni-Reader. You basicly make alot of the same changes you would make for a pulp mystery men type game, tone it down a little more maybe. I think the highest point value character was 14.

For sanity certain events make an attack roll against the character's mind you begin with 100 (or some other number) "sanity" just like your hits. It works fine.

I ran a Watchmen campaign that was anything but cartoony using the Iron Age rules in BASH! UE (that's how I playtested them in fact). Believe me when I say, the game can do gritty just fine!

BASHMAN wrote:I ran a Watchmen campaign that was anything but cartoony using the Iron Age rules in BASH! UE (that's how I playtested them in fact). Believe me when I say, the game can do gritty just fine!

Oh ... don't get me wrong. I believe it could/can.
But I also feel like certain games (whether by the flavor of the rules or the setting or the style) are geared to have groups play toward a certain style.

Some games do this well (Deadland's original rules/atmosphere, Call of Cthulhu rules and atmosphere, etc...). Some fight against or don't LEND to their subject matter to help the style as much (most universal systems).

That's what I'm talking about.

for example....
the game Truth & Justice is a supers game I really liked. But the very amateurish (in my humble opinion) style of the layout/design of the game book and the very cartoony imagery all led me to ONLY want to play games like "the Tick" in style and flavor. And the (more indie) cinematic/narrative rules for damage (while I love them in idea) also seem to lend to that.
[Spidey takes a hit from Doc Ock but instead of damage to hit points he reduces damage from his "loves Marry Jane" score]


I don't feel BASH! is in THAT ballpark, I actually really love the Bruce Timm-style of design and understand that Timm-cartoons can/do have more serious themes at heart most times.
However... they're NOT "Batman Arkham Asylum" in style either, or "Killing Joke", or "Dark Knight Returns", or "Watchmen".

So a part of me see (literally) the style fighting to GO into those other areas of comic styles.


In the end...
I am NOT arguing. And I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm NOT going to let it stop me from playing/enjoying BASH. I'm just working through my thoughts and seeing if anyone ELSE has had those feelings when it comes to style affecting game-play.


And... at the end of the day, I'd also love many more suggestions to HELP direct that flavor toward other types of genre-flavor.
I'd love - Rule alterations/additions or Narrator tips!

any ideas to help
thanks!