[recruiting] Marvel's "THE DEFENDERS" PbP

[kevperrine]

OK I needed a study break. I worked on Namor, because I can't imagine at the moment how to play Dr. Strange near 40 points. Kev's build not withstanding.

A few comments on my current build:

Too bad... If you wanted to play Strange, I'd like to have seen it.
That said.

I disagree with alot of your changes (not all of them) BUT even though I'd be Narrating - I am not *playing* the character. So I'd rather YOU (and any player) take the liberties you like on the character. Keeping in mind that for the premise (Iconic, "rookie" versions of the characters as the animated series "Avengers, Earth's Mighiest" presents the Avengers) I will give suggestions, but as long as you don't go crazy breaking the theme of the character.
I'm cool with your original build models! Completely.

No worries.
zat mean you're "claiming" Namor to PLAY in this PbP idea?
If so...
Awesome - we still need some teammates! hehe

thanks!
-kev-

[Harrigan]

Other Marvel characters with Brawn 5:

Abomination
Juggernaut
Hercules

...I'm sure there are more. And you know, using that half-step thing works really well when mapping to MSH levels.

0 Feeble
0+3 Poor
1 Typical
1+3 Good
2 Excellent
2+3 Remarkable
3 Incredible
3+3 Amazing
4 Monstrous
4+3 Like, *Really* Monstrous
5 Unearthly

I guess it stumbles a bit at the end, but the difference between 4 and 4+3 is pretty minimal anyway, compared to 1+3 and 2+3 over 1 and 2. And 0+3 is wonky too... I wonder if statistically it's actually better than 1?

Sorry if this sort of thing has been done to death here before. Just throwing two bits in.

[BeardedDork]

Namor is ONLY "Marvels first and mightiest mutant" because somewhere in the 70-90s some X-men writer (probably Liefeld) thought 'HEY!! technically Namor is a Mutant!! I'll USE the heck out of that!! Sell some X-books!" and technically (by Marvel's standard of what a Mutant IS) that's correct. However...
There is NO WAY that Namor would deem to lower himself to be thought of as more of a "mutant" or outright fight for the "mutant cause" with the X-men a great deal - MORE than he cares about: Atlantis, Himself, his own individual heritage, Sue Storm, or a few other gals... In THAT order. heheh

could you quote any part of my post where I disagreed with any of that?

He was billed as Marvel's First and Mightiest Mutant, Nothing was said about fighting for the X-cause.



According to this and for many following issues he is billed as Marvel's First and Mightiest Mutant.

Lifting a whale happened at least once, I believe it was in the story arc from #4-#7.

I'd have given him Brawn 5 you gave him 4, neither is wrong, just different. As you point out the categories are pretty broad that goes for the top categories as well. The hulk is stronger than Namor I don't disagree with you. Why would Namor need to trick the Hulk, because that would make a fight against the FF two against four not one against four. That and he's royalty, he in many ways likes to use agents.

[Saker]

I disagree with alot of your changes (not all of them)

As loquacious as you are, I can not believe that you did not detail your disagreements and why. I'm shocked and a little disappointed.

zat mean you're "claiming" Namor to PLAY in this PbP idea?

I suppose so.

[kevperrine]

Other Marvel characters with Brawn 5:

Abomination
Juggernaut
Hercules

...I'm sure there are more. .

Tons more (no pun intended). I'd agree with you on those completely. I'd "rank" them (with some other Marvels) in "strength" from low to high like this:

#1 the Hulk
#2 Sentry
#3 Gladiator
#4 Thor
#5 Juggernaut
#6 Hercules
#7 Abomination

But that's "sheer strength" for BASH! the Stat line is so "small" and Brawn also encompasses several other things - such as Soak ability and I'd say it suggests some fighting prowess... All to encapsulate the short Stat line 0-5 from Aunt May to the Hulk.
So while I'd say (as I list above) that Sentry and Gladiator are base-stronger than Thor or Hercules... both those characters would "make up" alot on the Stat line (proving they need to be UP there nearer the Hulk) due to their godly fighting ability.
Then there's Juggernaut and Abomination, who I'd say have higher Soaks than some of those I listed higher in Strength.

Then ... ALSO... while the Hulk IS the "strongest one there is" I'd say his very very calm and at peace Brawn is at the very bottom of Brawn 5 (if not Brawn 4 when he was "Mr. Fixit" or early gray Hulk).

I actually like BASH! alot for this aspect. It lets a builder (like me) place my favorite characters in broader categories that still fit them well... while at the same time for GAME rule purpose - allowing the randomizer of the dice mimic the sometimes similarly "random" writers story examples in comics.
For example.
In a Thor comic - it's much much more likely that Thor will "win" in a battle or strength contest, say with the Hulk, because it's HIS story, his comic. Whereas the same story retold in the pages of the Hulk (or a story about a rampaging Hulk vs. the world!) the Hulk will "win".
heheh
It's how characters like the Thing can even be in the same ring battling the Hulk (as he did alot in the early days of FF comics), because it's HIS comic book title.

Then lastly... you have Hero Points and Dice to make up the wonky "that shouldn't happen" random results that might occur IN-game sometimes.

Writers write the stories, they determine who'll "win" and make up a reason for their story need.
Supers is hard to model for that very reason.

That said. BASH! does it well. Good system.

And you know, using that half-step thing works really well when mapping to MSH levels.

0 Feeble
0+3 Poor
1 Typical
1+3 Good
2 Excellent
2+3 Remarkable
3 Incredible
3+3 Amazing
4 Monstrous
4+3 Like, *Really* Monstrous
5 Unearthly

I guess it stumbles a bit at the end, but the difference between 4 and 4+3 is pretty minimal anyway, compared to 1+3 and 2+3 over 1 and 2. And 0+3 is wonky too... I wonder if statistically it's actually better than 1?.

hehe... good list. I need to go back and update my "Narrator's Aid" to include Heightened. I didn't know about that rule when I made my charts.
The MSH game is a classic. It's one of THE very best game systems I've ever seen - built with the Marvel characters modeled so VERY well.
Which makes sense - it was created right around the time those AWESOME "Official Handbooks of the Marvel Universe" were being printed... In fact, if you look at the "Marvel Updates" character encyclopedias for the MSH game - you can see they look exactly like the "OHotMU" books and have the exact same text. Awesomely adding the stats for the game to help geeks like me get excited as a kid!!

That's the source I used for making my charts as an idea.

Sorry if this sort of thing has been done to death here before. Just throwing two bits in.

No. Fun fun. All good to think on for game fun.
-kev-

[kevperrine]

could you quote any part of my post where I disagreed with any of that?

He was billed as Marvel's First and Mightiest Mutant, Nothing was said about fighting for the X-cause.


I'm sorry. I think you mis-read me as trying to correct you on that or challenge or something. I was only commenting on the comment.
Namor is "Marvel's first and mighiest mutant" in words, but he's never really been connected with mutants.
You used that phrase as part of the reason Namor has a 5 Brawn, so I was commenting.
No offense.

But you can break that phrase up - meaning...

- "mutant" isn't really important, he doesn't consider himself one of them.
- "mightiest"... Namor (while I love him) is not even close to the mightiest character in Marvel. It'd be like saying Sue Storm is Marvel's first and mightiest girl. Technically she is Marvel's first girl-hero. But it doesn't mean anything. (though she probably IS one of the mightiest, LOL - she's definitely the best of the FF by far in power!)
- "first"... very close but yes, this is technically true, though no one knew what a "mutant" was until a year later when the X-men comic was published. Namor appeared in Marvel comics (issue #4 of the FF).
- "Marvel's" Yes and No. Namor wasn't one of Marvel's first. He wasn't even created for Marvel. But he did port over (with Cap and the original Human Torch) when Timely Comics became Marvel.

In the end...
Honestly. I'm not looking to argue or prove wrong. I just KNOW this stuff extremely well. So I speak up when I know something's off.
I don't want to make any problems with fellow BASH! fans though. So Beardeddork - I apologize. If you (or others) aren't interested, I won't comment with my info.
No worries.

According to this and for many following issues he is billed as Marvel's First and Mightiest Mutant.

Namor the Sub-Mariner Vol 1 #2, May, 1990
Yup. I'm not disagreeing, I know the phrase (and have that comic).
Like I said. The 70s-90s, Namor was "declared" Marvel's first and mightiest mutant. The 90s... as in the whoring of the X-men decade. When Wolverine was in 1 out of every 4 comics printed monthly.
Marketing doesn't make the phrase accurate.

Lifting a whale happened at least once, I believe it was in the story arc from #4-#7.

Okay. If you say so.
Maybe I'll swing by a comic shop and look for it. I'm curious now.
I don't recall that though.
But if he did, it was likely a poorly read writer or a killer whale (not a blue), which WOULD be in Namor's Brawn range.
HEY!
Then again - with BASH! rules Namor COULD "push" his Brawn to heft up something bigger than he normally could - bumping his Brawn from 4 to 5.
I'd be skeptical to allow him to lift a blue whale as Narrator though, Namor just isn't in that strength class. hehe...

I'd have given him Brawn 5 you gave him 4, neither is wrong, just different. As you point out the categories are pretty broad that goes for the top categories as well. The hulk is stronger than Namor I don't disagree with you. Why would Namor need to trick the Hulk, because that would make a fight against the FF two against four not one against four. That and he's royalty, he in many ways likes to use agents.

LOL
True.
All true.

I'm right though.
LOL
(I am T-O-T-A-L-L-Y teasing!!!)

good fun discussion.
NOW
who wants to PLAY this campaign!!!
-kev-

[kevperrine]

I disagree with alot of your changes (not all of them)

As loquacious as you are, I can not believe that you did not detail your disagreements and why. I'm shocked and a little disappointed.

ARE YOU CHALLENGING ME?!?!!! LOL
Are you saying I'm talkative or an *? heheh...

Seriously.
I like giving my opinion on things I'm fairly certain I'm solid on. THAT and I happen to type faster than I think. So it's not time consuming.
That said...
On this (on your changes) I don't need, and in Narrating a game, don't WANT to be "right" or challenge your ideas.
Just noting that some, I would incorporate. And some I'd say aren't as true to the character as I know him.

I haven't read all Namor comic appearances.
And I'm not the one playing him.

So I'm cool with creative interpretations (even if I disagree) that allow for more fun for a player.

zat mean you're "claiming" Namor to PLAY in this PbP idea?

I suppose so.[/quote]

HOORAY!
who's up for claiming next?
-kev-

[BeardedDork]

Not to continue a pointless debate over 20 year old comics, just to clarify what I was saying.

"The first and mightiest mutant" I brought up to compare him against, Colossus, who unless I misread your post, you listed as being stronger. I believe this is handily not true (even without the tagline.)That line compares him only to other mutants, it doesn't compare him in any way to the likes of Thor, or The Hulk.

It is entirely possible that I am mistaken about it being a blue whale, that's how I interpreted it when I was a teenager, and I haven't looked at those comics in probably 10 years or more, right now they are under my stairs in the very back behind all the baby furniture, my wifes crap she hasn't looked at in years, and the seasonal decorations (I really should dig those out and read them again). But I loved that line and eagerly awaited the new issues at Albertson's every month.

As I recall that story line was about what appeared to be an oil spill off the New York coast, but turned out to be some giant muck thing instead. Marvel was big on environmental stories at the time, they launched Solar Man, and Captain Planet right around then also (I have the number ones of those just because they where number ones, at 14 I had some concept of comics being valuable at low numbers.).

So saving whales was cool, and it * off Namor which was also cool. Star Trek even did a thing with it.

[Harrigan]

So I shouldn't sign up for this since I normally dislike playing characters that are not my own, and playing in a published comic world. However, this might be a bit of a chance to dive in and learn BASH! that much faster. So I am leaning towards interested.

The question would be who to play. Digging on the Thing (LOVE the Thing), grumpy at the FF and during one of the many times he's decided to take a break from them, Sue Storm (awesome powers and especially fun if Namor would be on the team) and maybe my favorite here, Valkyrie. The Thing and Sue don't have the Defender vibe, but I understand their personalities a lot better than Valkyrie. So they'd be easier to play. For Brunhilde or whatever her name is, I get the angry, man-beating hot norse goddess with the big metal boobs thing, but not much beyond that in terms of motivations and such. Better read those Secret Avengers I'm behind on, I guess.

Hrm.

[kevperrine]

"The first and mightiest mutant" I brought up to compare him against, Colossus, who unless I misread your post, you listed as being stronger. I believe this is handily not true (even without the tagline.)That line compares him only to other mutants, it doesn't compare him in any way to the likes of Thor, or The Hulk.

As I said - a phrase came up with for marketing purposes isn't the best qualifier for anything. And while a cool tagline, the only accurate part of it is technically that Namor's a mutant and technically (in Marvel continuity) he is the first "known" mutant and technically the first published Marvel mutant (in FF #4 a year before the X-men #1 was released).

But he's not THE first Marvel mutant in continuity... Marvel's timeline of characters has shown that there have been mutants since the cavemen...

And yup! I would totally compare Namor with Colossus and say that Colossus IS all around tougher (soak) and stronger (Brawn). For reference here's another mini-ranking I'd suggest (below my rankings of the strongest up-thread)...
In this order:

IronMan
the Thing & Colossus (to close to call)
All of the Wrecking Crew
Namor
Spider-Man & Power Man (to close to call)
Thunderbird
Beast
Captain America
Daredevil & Wolverine (to close to call)
Flash Thompson
Cyclops
J. Jonah Jamesome
Aunt May

lists are fun fun fun.

So I shouldn't sign up for this since I normally dislike playing characters that are not my own, and playing in a published comic world. However, this might be a bit of a chance to dive in and learn BASH! that much faster. So I am leaning towards interested.

That's the spirit.
That's what I'd do.

The question would be who to play. Digging on the Thing (LOVE the Thing), grumpy at the FF and during one of the many times he's decided to take a break from them, Sue Storm (awesome powers and especially fun if Namor would be on the team) and maybe my favorite here, Valkyrie. The Thing and Sue don't have the Defender vibe, but I understand their personalities a lot better than Valkyrie. So they'd be easier to play. For Brunhilde or whatever her name is, I get the angry, man-beating hot norse goddess with the big metal boobs thing, but not much beyond that in terms of motivations and such. Better read those Secret Avengers I'm behind on, I guess.

Hrm.

Well... a couple things. All those are perfectly fine for this idea.

As a side note
The Fantastic Four HAVE been "shown" in the Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heroes animated series. Clearly shown as a group/family team.
SO... If you played the the Thing or Sue (which is fine!) you would have the backstory of being a part of the FF (when you're in the FF you never really leave, it's a family). So fun role-play and situations for NPCs (of Reed, Johnny, etc...) might be fun. I'd also say that Reed and Sue probably are NOT married yet (as far as I know) in this continuity yet. So playing off Namor with Sue wouldn't be against her personality (cheating on marriage). And it's some great nods to old Marvel love triangles with Reed/Sue/Namor. The Thing is also a great choice as he's probably the FF member that leaves the team the MOST often, fed up with Reed or Johnny or being bellicose because he thinks they think he's ugly, etc.. etc.. hehe
Neither are "weird" to join the Defenders.

I would suggest to rule out playing many of the X-men or any of the in-continuity Avengers, except perhaps the Hulk - as he leaves the Avengers all the time. (actually in real Marvel continuity, he's only left ONCE... never coming back) But he'd be *the* one Avenger I'd say could be played in this SAME continuity campaign plan.

Note... If someone wanted (I would!) they could play a character from the Avengers' cartoon such as WonderMan, who was introduced (and thought dead) as a villain. And isn't a likely candidate to return to the show anytime soon. No reason he couldn't come back in OUR story. Same said with other ideas from the Avengers show.

Valkyrie isn't a character that has had many stories told in Marvel Comics at all really. Less than most of the Avengers/Defenders.
I'd say, you could take what you know of (or can find of) hinting at her personality, style and such - and run with it. She might be one of those "almost original" characters YOU could enjoy bringing into a limelight for role-play and action.
She'd be a choice I'd play for sure.
Then again - I love the background and that flying horse of hers!!!

All could be great.
I might toy with making stats for Valkyrie, just to "get to know her", hehe...

thanks folks!
Looks like the team might be SLOWLY growing! hehe
I am thinking of writing up the opening scene to post, for more interest/excitement.
I think THIS is the campaign (of all I mentioned) that jazzes both me and others the most.

Any thoughts?
-kev-

[Harrigan]

Knowing fairly precious little about the character other than that she's bloody awesome, here's my first swipe. There's actually a type or two in there, but it's toooo late in the evening to fix at the moment.

[Harrigan]

IronMan
the Thing & Colossus (to close to call)
All of the Wrecking Crew
Namor
Spider-Man & Power Man (to close to call)
Thunderbird
Beast
Captain America
Daredevil & Wolverine (to close to call)
Flash Thompson
Cyclops
J. Jonah Jamesome
Aunt May

Ridiculous to engage in these kinds of debates, but Iron Man stronger than the Thing? No way dude. And not according the the revered MSH... (I might not recall correctly, but I think the Thing was at 75, Iron Man at 50)...

Edit: Okay, so after doing a little digging on the web maybe I stand corrected. I was sure the old MSH 1st edition had him lower. Ah well -- memory's going!

[Saker]

Hey Kev

I was saying that you are talkative. Maybe prolific is a better adjective considering it's writing.

After sleeping on it and seeing your reply, I've changed my mind. I would like to play Dr. Strange. Plus, I will play him as you built him for two reasons:

1. There are very few characters that I enjoy as much as Dr. Strange in the Marvel universe

2. I actually enjoy playing pre-generated characters, especially at conventions. It adds an extra element of discovering the character for me

Feel free to tweak his build, but I will play whatever you build. Feel free to develop the story around the Doc.

@Harrigan

The Valkyrie picture is great! I'll wait for Kev before I start commenting on the build. Here's a baseline for her powers but is not as developed as this. Better. Good too

cheers

[Nestor]

Well, shoot, seeing as how you called my bluff, I feel obligated to follow through and give ol' Cage a spin.

Little side story: when I got ready to play my first game of Champions back in '81, my character was a blatant ripoff of Power-Man. His hero name was even Hero-For-Hire.

[kevperrine]

Knowing fairly precious little about the character other than that she's bloody awesome, here's my first swipe.

Here's some thoughts...

- Brawn & Agility are good. Mind seems high - is she really on the level of a Phd? I understand how alot of people don't like BASH!'s stat for 1 especially in Mind though...
- LOVE "Activation" on Armor, unique neat way to "show" the limitation of bare arms/legs!
- "Strike Stunning Pose"... LOL love it.
- I'd like to hear more on how you'd want to see your Mental Malfunction played in-game.
- I love love love the Enchantress.
- No Aragorn? Seems *, in that the Black Knight probably hasn't come into THIS continuity yet. But he's a cool horse, and I wouldn't say no if you wanted him as a Superpet or even Vehicle.

Good solid build!
nice work.
anyone else giving a hand at building?

thanks!
-kev-