Living Megapolis: Hero Points & Experience

[kevperrine]

How does the draft text represent what you are doing?

Not sure what you're asking here? Clarification?

I want the majority of the living campaign issues to be written at an “Issue Scale” of 30 points. Any exceptional issues will add or subtract hero points from 30.

First. To be clear - "ISSUE SCALE" is my phrase, based off an extension of the RAW that I feel is more appropriate to give PC-Heroes more accurate value of Hero Points each Issue based on the current threat vs. their Character Point Value.

To use RAW wording.... Technically there some Keywords you might want to consider (in bold) and use to clarify character creation rules:

"CAMPAIGN SCALE"
The Campaign Scale is the point value (20-60+ pts) that represent the style of the comic book supers campaign you'll be playing:
Mystery Men (0-20 pts)
Street Level (21-25 pts)
World Class (26-40 pts)
Cosmic (41-60+ pts)

This number suggested, gives the players an idea of how to build their PC-Hero on the average of how many points to spend overall, how many suggested by RAW to spend in Stats & Powers. This is assumed that MOST villains built by the Narrator will be a good challenge/threat to any PC-Hero in that range. Also, it can be assumed that any non-villain threats - such as Extended Check threats, like defusing a bomb or environmental events like an Earthquake or even general skill checks in each Issue will be in-line with something a PC-Hero built at that Character Point Value can make.

"CHARACTER SCALE"
The Character Scale is the recommended "Character Point Value" in which the Narrator of the campaign tells players the overall campaign will be.

Each player will make their PC-Hero with, by BASH! RAW, theoretically ANY amount of Character Point Value they want, regardless of the Campaign Scale.
So a Narrator might say... "Our campaign is a Street Level campaign." Therefore the Narrator is suggesting each player build their PC-Hero somewhere near or between 21-25 pts. on the average.
What the Narrator is saying is that EACH Issue played will generally have threats that are built with points (ie. the Villain's Character Point Value builds) or event threats that will be challenging and fun for any PC-Heroes that are made with 21-25 pts.
Even so.... I might want to make a more powerful PC-Hero, so I might make my character with 33pts. If the Narrator is okay with that (I would be!) that means that on the average EACH Issue I play with my 33pt. PC-Hero I'm most likely to have "Personal Setback Points" awarded to the Narrator to USE against my PC-Hero during each Issue (that refresh each Issue!).

So that means if we have a PC-Team, For Example:
- urbwar's PC-Hero [20pts]
- Saker's PC-Hero [24pts.]
- AslanC's PC-Hero [25pts]
- kevperrine's PC-Hero [33pts]

If BASHMAN is Narrating the Campaign (that he's told us all will be a Campaign Scale of Street Level (21-25pts), generally by the RAW my PC-Hero will be giving BASHMAN 8+ Setback Points to use against my PC-Hero each Issue.

My style of Narrating does the EXACT same thing, except I suggest the overall Campaign Scale (as above) and then at EACH game session I say "this Issue is an ISSUE SCALE at 27 points!"...
Meaning in addition to the Standard Rule that every PC-Hero gets 1 Hero Die to start each Issue:
- urbwar gets 7 extra Hero Points
- Saker gets 3 extra Hero Points
- AslanC gets 2 extra Hero Points
- kevperrine gives the Narrator 6 Personal Setback Points



All of this is either defined of eluded toward on p.3 of the RAW.
"The Character Point Value is determined by the scale of the campaign." [--BASH! p.3]

I am really interested in your experience of issues that you have run at that scale. How big are the bad guys? How many are there? How do the heroes face them in the issue: solo or gang? I need a better feel for “Issue Scale.”

Honestly.... GameMastering a superhero RPG is one of the most challenging effort in GMing. Why? Because you see a player build a PC-Hero with BASH! (or any system) with a solid point value - and have a PC-Hero that is very competent. Then you can have a second player that builds a PC-Hero with the SAME total Character Point Value and the character won't be able to hold their own in anything.
A great true comic book superhero example is Marvel Comics old NEW MUTANTS title. Consider:

Saker plays: Sunspot [25 pts]
urbwar plays: Cannonball [23 pts]
AslanC plays: Magik [28 pts]
kevperrine plays: Cypher [24 pts]

At first glance, no problem right? While the game can STILL be fun (if you have the right group) anyone that knows the New Mutants title and those characters will know that while Cypher might be built in the middle of the pack Character Point Value in points (due to his need for some powers and many skills and advantages) even a character like Cannonball (who is a VERY simple cheap build) will be way way more "combat/action" effective. And other characters like Sunspot will be very "combat/action" effective even on a solid point build budget. Then a character like Magik may be almost over-powered for the group (she ended up taking on all of them as a villain multiple times).


Point being... to try and answer your question. Really I'd suggest the Narrator doing a few things.
- look at PC-Heroes in the Character Point Value you're setting your campaign. Look at their potential for: reasonable Stat ranks, number of Skills, and possible modifiers for Power Rank Levels.
- how do those values figure into Skill or Power checks? How do those values balance with the NPC Villains you plan to have in the campaign?

After that... it's getting a feel for how the overall game plays. As for numbers of Villains (or threats in action), having closer to equal threats to the number of PC-Heroes will make how you built your Villains (their Character Point Value) easier to match to the same level of the PC-Heroes.
If you have alot less (or just one) Villain to face, that villain might be better served to have 3-10 points built HIGHER than the most expensive PC-Hero, not to mention considering having powers/abilities that allow for effect with dealing with heroes on a multiple level (such as taking ranks in Super Speed to have more actions for one Villain to face 4-5 PC-Heroes, al la: Magneto vs. X-men).

I then set my ISSUE SCALE at or near the value of that primary threat or an average of the villain team or if I have multiple threats planned in action/combat, I may take that number +5 or something.

It's honestly a feel for the game at this point. You can do your planning and due diligence to get an average of where your Campaign Scale suggestion (and each Issue Scale) should be, but in the end it's a SOFT CAP to consider. No threat will be exact to give an exact number.

That said.
Being a superhero is COOL!! And it SHOULD BE!!
So having MORE Hero Points than less is always okay. Then again, if you have a PC-Hero that is above the suggested Campaign/Issue Scale - you ALSO want to consider the "need" to set Setback Points for them, because not paying attention to that will break the balance (and fun) of the Issue for the lower level PC-Heroes no matter how many Hero Points they got.

I (personally) need to learn to USE my Setback Points more/better when Narrating BASH! I forget all the time.

Second, it may not seem like it, but I have read the book a couple times.

hehe.... apologies Saker, if I gave the impression I thought you haven't. Sincerely. What I would say is the BASH! rules are fun, but there are many (some very important) rules that are *hidden* in the text in various places.
You can read through the rules a half dozen times, but (as many of us do) if you literally don't read each section LOOKING for a potential "rule changer" sentence, you can miss it.

I only know this because of the way I "read" the rules. I can say I've probably never sat and read the BASH! rules cover to cover. I've probably never even read a single full chapter in one sitting.
What I do do... is read a rule, digest it, then do a PDF search for any keywords of that rule quickly. I literally did a keyword search for "HERO DICE" (and Hero Points, Setback, Villain Dice, etc...)..... that jumps me to every paragraph, that I can scan to see if it's necessary to interpret additions to the rule I'm reviewing.
In a shorter RAW like BASH! it's fairly quick and very helpful.

So yeah...
I'm not saying I've read the rules more than you, or that you haven't. I'm just noting that some of the way BASH! RAW is written makes for finding some rules challenging.
Which (from interpretting many RPGs) I don't take for granted anymore. Which is why I love having a PDF copy of the rules for any game I want to play. Just too helpful.


-kev-

[BeardedDork]

I've always played that:
- Personal Hero Pts. & Setback Pts. refresh each issue as RAW.

- any HPs & SPs gained in the Issue carry-over issue-to-issue.

- I tell my game group the "general" Campaign Scale of the campaign and let them build ANY power level of PC-Hero they like, knowing they'll get HPs or SPs each issue.

- I rate EACH Issue with an "Issue Scale" based on the adventure and villains and threats for the night's Issue. Then I announce it at beginning of the game, to which each PC-Hero tells me if their Character Point build is above/below that value. Then they get HPs or I get extra SPs for their cost vs. the Issue. Because, to me, that helps balance each Issue and gives PC-Heroes more HPs to play with on the average - unless it's a tiny "milk-run" Issue on patrol or something meant to be a day in the life, fun and easy Issue leading up to something next Issue.

I also do almost exactly this.

[Saker]

How does the draft text represent what you are doing?

Not sure what you're asking here? Clarification?

-kev-

The point of this thread is to improve the text of the rules for the BASH living campaign. My question above is how well does the text that I've posted clarify the game?

Thanks for the advice and experience. The real trick will be writing standard adventures without knowing the hero composition. This has always been the problem for living campaigns. The best solution that I have seen is for adventures to challenge role-players, combat-monsters and skill-masters evenly with a strong story, such that a balanced team is required for success.

cheers

[kevperrine]

The point of this thread is to improve the text of the rules for the BASH living campaign. My question above is how well does the text that I've posted clarify the game?

I read all the links you mentioned about living campaigns. Not having experienced any (and not really seeing a solid example yet), I am still unsure as to what and how this would work to really give any help from my corner. So my thoughts/questions might be misplaced unintentionally.

So a big question.
We have the BASH! rules as written. I am not understand what needs to improve or clarify to make the difference for a lving campaign.
I'll try and answer my own question to help.
Are you...

a. Creating rule additions that help explain how you would like potential Narrators to rule on specific things? If so... why? Why wouldn't the Narrators just rule as the BASH! rules go? Why need to write, re-write or clarify any rule (such as the FAME rules) when all you need to say is "BASH! LIVING will be using the FAME rules."

b. Re-Writing portions of the RAW that you know specifically will not work in the confines of how a living campaign works? If so, I still really have no clue of an example on how the lving campaigns work then...

Thanks for the advice and experience. The real trick will be writing standard adventures without knowing the hero composition. This has always been the problem for living campaigns.

I'd say this bit would be the easiest. I think I noted somewhere upthread - in my humble opinion... if you have or can game-master a successful SUPERhero campaign, you can GM almost any game.

Supers are so incredibly "wild card" even if you know the PC-Hero's powers/abilities in detail. With Hero Dice making Power Stunts possible every 2-3 Pages (between the several PC-Hero player group) and Hero Pts./Dice making successes (sometimes) more of a choice than a chance (i.e. a player just spends points to "win" when they WANT/need)...

Mixed all with their effects on the environment (collateral damage) and their overwhelming effect vs. enemies that could change in a blink of an eye (especially in BASH! system with the WILD WILD WILD swing of the multiplier system!)... A villain can be perfect and on top with full HITS and have the edge then all of a sudden a PC-Hero rolls well and does 174 HITS of damage, etc... etc....


All due respect, sincerely... but...
I really really don't think "knowing" the PC-Hero composition is as important as you think.

If you've GMed a superhero game in the past, it's likely you can write/create an adventure that will handle any type of hero.

The best solution that I have seen is for adventures to challenge role-players, combat-monsters and skill-masters evenly with a strong story, such that a balanced team is required for success.

ehhh... I don't know... Why "force" the players to make a "balanced team"?
Why even try?

That's not how comics or animated series work.

I've found that a hero team isn't balanced as much as it is "diverse".... meaning... as long as the team members come up with different ideas and archetypes, not every team has skills or abilities that favor "covering" all the bases of balance.

Heck. Look at a team like the Defenders. You have:
- massive strong hero (Hulk)
- massive strong-cosmic hero (Silver Surfer)
- semi-strong water/nobility hero (Namor)
- and massively powerful "can do any power" magic guy (Dr. Strange)

No detectives. No acrobats. No scientists. No (effective) politicians. Just fun neat characters.

Then look at an "effective" villain team like the Wrecking Crew. They're 100% the same, aside from minor personalities differences and a scientist amid the thuggery.


I'm not sure this matters as much...
-kev-

[Saker]

Kev

I've a couple responses to your last post that I'm separating into two posts. This one has to say that I'm confused when you write the following:

All due respect, sincerely... but...
I really really don't think "knowing" the PC-Hero composition is as important as you think.

Because, you were responding to something that I wrote which was actually following the next thing that you wrote about how you build encounters:

Point being... to try and answer your question. Really I'd suggest the Narrator doing a few things.
- look at PC-Heroes in the Character Point Value you're setting your campaign. Look at their potential for: reasonable Stat ranks, number of Skills, and possible modifiers for Power Rank Levels.
- how do those values figure into Skill or Power checks? How do those values balance with the NPC Villains you plan to have in the campaign?

How do your two quotes align?

[Saker]

Kev

I'm trying another time to explain a living campaign.

You've said that you run BASH games for a group of players, right? Take the same set of characters, setting and serialized story and you have a campaign, a home campaign.

Now imagine if you wanted to run the exact same campaign for other players: hundreds of more players. Now imagine if you wanted to give your adventures to another Narrator for them to run your adventures: hundreds more Narrators.

In a living campaign, players can attend any convention and continue playing in the campaign with any other players and narrators with the same character and storyline. Or just use the living campaign issues "as is" with their home group.

Now what would you have to document to let players know how to create their characters and fit them into the setting? What would you have to document to let narrators know how to narrate the same issue? Those documents are what I'm reviewing with everyone here. And at the same time deciding on the type of common campaign that we will share.

Get it?