how can THOR & the WASP be on the same team?

[danbuter]

I doubt Wasp is all that off in points from Thor. While Thor is great in a fight, and can do some weather stuff, he's largely useless otherwise. Wasp is loaded in skill points. She can do all kinds of stuff that Thor would have no clue where to even start at. Not to mention, in Giant form, she's nearly as strong as Thor. And when small, she can get into places as a scout that none of the others can. And she has energy blasts.

[BASHMAN]

When did she start using Growing as a power? I've only ever seen her with Shrinking, Energy Blasts [limited to only work while shrunk], and Flight [also only while shrunk]

[urbwar]

When did she start using Growing as a power? I've only ever seen her with Shrinking, Energy Blasts [limited to only work while shrunk], and Flight [also only while shrunk]

I've seen her use the blast fully grown in some issues, so the limitation about being only shrunk is likely gone (though I guess it depends on which version of her you use, since different writers tend to allow things other writers wouldn't)

[kevperrine]

I think you might be overestimating Jan.... No... I know you're overestimating her power level and abilities.

Wasp has the ability to shrink (to wasp size) and do a wasp-sting (blast). If in the good graces of her abusive husband she's been given the formula to grow at times (remember the original versions of Wasp and Ant-Man had to swallow a pill to shrink).

It's true Jan's used her wasp-sting in full size at times, however THAT is a perfect example of spending a Hero Pint to allow, because she's only done it a handful of times in her 40+ year career.
Same said with growing.... Now - in the Ultimates universe she may have had Growing (as an extension of Pym's formula - working both ways). But in the normal continuity - I would count Growing as another Hero Point Power Stunt.

And Jan's sting... I'd equate it to just above a handgun (except energy and non-lethal).

To be fair... A couple things (that is a nod to BASH! rules!) Wasp has at times been VERY important and "powerful". I recall on at least one occasion that she alone was the SINGLE Avenger to take down Ultron when no other could! She simply flew INSIDE him and stung away!! And he was DOWN.
Again - this isn't "normal" and I wouldn't build her with that kind of tactic/ability. I'd equate it to another Power Stunt - probably Attack Weak Point or more.

Lastly (on just how powerful you're overestimating her)... Jan i NOT a skill heavy character. She's learned alot since her early days, picking up the natural skills an Avenger might get from being around everyone from her ex-husband (Pym), and Tony Stark, and Hank McCoy, etc... for scientific type skills.
And possibly some skills in things like stealth, etc... from her own power plus watching Black Panther or others...
Then she's likely trained under Captain America, as ALL Avengers have to some degree or another (Hawkeye probably being the best trained under Cap, and likely Jan being the LEAST trained)

It's just NOT her personality.
Remember. Jan is more akin to be hosting Project Runway than anything else. She's a fashion maven, THAT is her thing... Not a massive amount of skills.

Actually I'd say that you ARE right in that she may have more (normal Earth-based) skills than THOR. But, likely the least of any other Avenger...


That said. I actually like Jan. I'm just being realistic with her. She's probably the WEAKEST Avenger that's been on active duty (and a team chairman!) ever. Even Dr. Druid had shaman-magics. (PS. I'm not counting the Great Lakes Avengers, but they are probably all more skilled/powerful than Jan too).


Lastly.
This is the most important.... In normal continuity Jan's dead. Been dead for awhile now.
So.
If you're thinking of any recent power uses, you must be remembering the Ultimate Wasp. Which... barely counts. heheh


And by the way... I think you're WAY WAY WAY underestimating Thor. Thor is a god. Thor is on par with Superman. Thor is the only hero on (Marvel's) Earth that can even come close to besting the Hulk (okay, Sentry... but he's not the "hero" Thor is!). And... Thor is a GOD.
How on earth is that level of power (almost everything Superman can do at the same power level) plus the ability to control the weather... HOW is that close to the Wasp??


heheh...
Okay. I'm NOT being a big Thor fanboy. But I am 100% skilled in my "marvel-fu" and I know all those points as facts.

Thor on his worst day pushes on the bottom tier of Cosmic level Character Points easy. Wasp on her best day may get just above Street Level.


all said and done.... I love Jan - afterall SHE is the one that coined the Avenger's name!


and I'm done now. hehe
-kev-

[urbwar]

You left out that Wasp does have leadership skills too (ie tactics), since she did lead the Avengers at one point. Since being the leader of that team requires a small degree of tactical skill, I'd say she qualifies for that as well.

Also, according to Wasp's entry at Marvel.com, it doesn't specify that she could only fire blasts when shrunk. It doesn't mention her growing, but it does state her strength increases when she is shrunk, which I honestly never knew about before (and I don't recall that from older entries on the character). And this is the regular one who died, not the ultimate one.

[kevperrine]

You left out that Wasp does have leadership skills too (ie tactics), since she did lead the Avengers at one point. Since being the leader of that team requires a small degree of tactical skill, I'd say she qualifies for that as well.

Also, according to Wasp's entry at Marvel.com, it doesn't specify that she could only fire blasts when shrunk. It doesn't mention her growing, but it does state her strength increases when she is shrunk, which I honestly never knew about before (and I don't recall that from older entries on the character). And this is the regular one who died, not the ultimate one.

hehe... Nope, you're right. You'd have to read the comics with her in them to "know" some of those details.

Funny sidebar
(NOT putting you or others in this category) but that reminds me of my game/pal Adam. Adam isn't a comic book fan, I don't think he's EVER read one. He's not a super hero fan, he thinks their ideology is stupid and flawed in the broad sense.
That said... he's been willing to play in Supers games with me because he's open to games in general that his friends like, and he honestly gives a good effort.
So much, that he takes to devouring the information on Wikipedia (and other sites) regarding the heroes & villains I grew up with.

The thing is he may know almost everything I do about... a character like "the Kingpin" ... he may know Wilson Fisk is "just a simple businessman", etc... etc...
But the thing he DOESN'T know and can't know are the intricacies of the CHARACTER. Facts from a web site blurb won't tell you the stories completely, and they won't give you the nuances and the small touches. They won't give you the dialogue style or the "personality" of a character.

I call this the SPIRIT of the character.

My friend Adam can know almost as much as I do about any given character, but role-playing an established character or (in this case) knowing what they WOULD and would NOT have as a standard purchased part of their character... That stuff might fall through the cracks.

With Wasp.
I agree... she HAS been the "chairman" of the Avengers (they nominate and revolve duties as chairman) and they, generally, have a field leader.
I know Jan has been chairman - a classic early issue has her getting all angry when Iron Man ditches a meeting.
But I (off the top of my head) can't recall her "leading" an Avengers team. She may have. I'm not saying she hasn't. But, frankly, how and why would Wasp lead the Avengers in the field when there will almost always be a better leader on the active roster?

I'd have to see reference for a time she was team leader (in the field) and not just chairman, who's in charge of organizing meetings at the mansion.

heheh
PS...
I promise I am NOT being a * about this. I don't want to do that as a new fan of BASH! with you nice helpful folks on the forums. But this is a fun discussion for me.

Because I love and know Marvel's history well. I have read almost every issue of the main titles, especially the earlier issues.

And I do love Jan (it really REALLY "hit" me when I was a kid as a dramatic story when the abusive husband storylines happened with her and Hank)... but HONESTLY, Wasp isn't that powerful. She made the team ONLY because her husband heard the call needed for a team to gather to stop the hulk, she came along. Its even the same way in the Ultimate storylines.

Jan is well RESPECTED as an Avenger. And she is surely a HERO more than most Avengers. She died an Avenger. But she's NOT in league with the big three or a couple dozen other actives or reserves.
She's just not.


That said.
If a player were to make Wasp as a PC, I wouldn't balk at them if they gave her some tactical skills... I'd just assume they'd read her bio on Wikipedia and let them play a little more effective character. LOL

Seriously... you're right though, Jan probably DOES have some tactical experience. But I'd only say the "veteran" version of her would. The early Wasp was little more than Ant-Man's sidekick and the token cute-girl on the team of powerful men (aside from Ant-Man, hehe).


Now...
You want a POWERFUL female in the Marvel U.??
Sue Storm. She's the MOST powerful member of the FF and could give almost any Avenger a run for his money. Period.

The most powerful female Avengers?
She-Hulk or Ms. Marvel.

The most powerful female X-man?
Ororo Munroe. (it's hard to count Jean since that was mostly the Pheonix entity, and Rogue is tough but not on Storm's level)



thoughts??
(like I noted, I hope people take my words in the sentiment I mean them. Fun and excited for these awesome stories and characters. I apologize if I sound snarky. I'm not looking to be)

thanks!
-kev-

[UncleShecky]

I just want to clarify the question about the Wasp's growth powers. Jan did gain these powers in mainstream Marvel continuity: in Mighty Avengers #8 to be specific.

Hank Pym gives her a new version of the Pym formula as an "anniversary present," and the new version allows her to go giant-sized. And sure enough, in that same issue, she grows to giant-size during a fight.

As far as I know, she never used the power again, but the implication was that she could whenever she wanted to. In game terms, that's a power stunt for sure: even though the comic implies she could do it at any time from there on, she almost never does. But if you're making your own version of the Wasp, you could easily justify giving her that power (keeping in mind that it really is diverging from what she actually does in the comics).

It's revealed later (in Mighty Avengers # 15, and in Secret Invasion #7-8) that the "Hank Pym" who gave her this new formula was actually a Skrull (spoiler, sorry), and that the formula also turned her into some sort of super-growing bioweapon. (It's pretty poorly explained, like a lot of things during the Civil War/Initiative/Secret Invasion era). Anyway, that "new power" runs out of control, and Jan dies as a result, in Secret Invasion #8.

Other Pym-particle-powered heroes have used the particles to fight at giant size on occasion (e.g. the new "Irredeemable" Ant-Man did it in an early issue of the Initiative, and it was never part of his powers previously), but it's a power stunt.