Just an observation

[drkrash]

Is it just me or are posted builds here getting more and more complicated?

[Nestor]

Heh. It's the nature of the beast.

As people get more familiar with the rules, they start exploring superhero concepts that are less straightforward in their power sets.

The trick is to avoid rules bloat (i.e. creating rules just to address a specific situation instead of letting common sense and GM creativity guide the way).

That way lies madness... and certain other systems we shall not discuss here.

[drkrash]

Well, FWIW, my concern is that I'm seeing builds not for esoteric power types, but just overspecified versions of regular powers.

This is not to say people aren't do exceptional work with the BASH rules...but as you hinted at, I came to this game because I was sick of thinking that hard at creating powers.

[Dragonfly]

Hey drkrash,

I shouldn't assume, but I suppose I might be one of the folks creating more detailed builds. I hope that's okay. The fact is that you may have come to BASH for certain reasons and have certain gaming needs, while others have come to BASH for different reasons and have other gaming needs. There should be enough room under the BASH umbrella for all of us.

I understand that you came to BASH so that you wouldn't "have to think that hard" when building powers. That's cool, but why should it concern you that others are choosing approach things a little differently? They aren't making YOU change. Live and let live!

For what it's worth - I too appreciate BASH's simplicity. It IS one of the reasons why I came to the game, and I don't want that to change any more than it will in the upcoming second printing.

I think Nestor has it right. Rules bloat is the real danger. I was looking through my 1st edition copy of Champions the other day. That sucker was 80 pages long! The mechanics were still a little clunky by modern standards, but it was short, fun to read, fun to tinker with and probably didn't need to evolve much beyond what it was to keep that magic. Compare that to the almost 800 page monstrosity that is sixth edition!. That's just insane!

I really believe that no style of play endangers what the game offers as long as the rulesbook stays simple.

BTW, my Marvel Comics write-ups were really an experiment, not the way I usually play the game. I wanted to see how BASH would handle builds that were intentional about A) making certain that characters were "accurately" ranked against each other [according to how they've been ranked in the various Marvel RPGs and on the Marvel wiki], and B) that the characters could do the things that they do in the comics with enough accuracy as possible. In other words, If Iron Man is listed on the Marvel wiki as flying at Mach 3, I wanted to do a write-up that had him flying at Mach 3.

Having gotten through that experiment, I'm back to a more simple style of play.

Well, just some thoughts.

Best,

Dragonfly

[BASHMAN]

I tend towards simple builds myself- but I think it is just a matter of personal preference. While I like to just take something like Gadgeteer, or Versatile to cover a lot of things- somebody else may want to have all the various gadgets and tricks written up as full powers. Neither one is "wrong" just different ways of doing things.

[Michael]

To be honest, I find that simpler builds usually work better.

[kevperrine]

To be honest, I find that simpler builds usually work better.

To be honest... I'd read "better" as more versatile. Or more open to interpretation during games. Something that can be a boon or hindrance to the PC depending on how the Narrator would rule.

If you have something more specific, it's more directed for the player to point to the written build and rule to say "I *CAN* do this because...." as opposed to a less complicated build where in-game the player might say "CAN I do this?" interpreting the rules on the spot with the Narrator.

Overall... I also tend toward more complex builds. But only because I really enjoy "figuring out" the system, learning new neat ways to use the rules as written.
Sure.... you might be able to simplify with a more vague build, and if it's a truly elegant solution - I am more than for it. But, sometimes it's very fun to piece together ALL of the details. That way you can always pull back once you "test" the rule you've used for the build in-game.

Less is more. That's true.
But sometimes more is fun to try, when learning or testing a system.

-kev-

[Dragonfly]

Less is more. That's true. But sometimes more is fun to try, when learning or testing a system.

-kev-

I couldn't have put it better myself! My Marvel write-ups were all about me learning the system. I mean, I already knew the system, but making those hyper-complex character builds helped me to mentally calibrate it for myself.

Besides, sometimes its just fun to take the car out on the race track.

Best,

Dragonfly

[MrJupiter]

While I can appreciate the elegance of a simple build, I must admit that I really enjoy making a detailed build for much the same reasons as keveperrine and Dragonfly. I like that a character really feels defined with a unique feel over other similar character types. I love that BASH can do that more simply than with some systems.

[kevperrine]

I love that BASH can do that more simply than with some systems.

I would also add...
One of the fun bits of the GAME part of role-playing games is to explore the system. Not to find it's problems (though that's helpful to know too) but rather to find the sweet spots and the synchronicities and the rules that fit together well...

To know that you will want an Acrobatics skill if you want to escape Burst attacks well, or that you need a higher MIND score (or Boosted Mind) if you want to have a decent Ranged damage modifier.
(those are simple examples)

But I'm referring to things that don't jump out at you in a first reading of the rules.

These things DO come up during game-play. They also can be sussed out well when making a complex build.

I really like a system that CAN do simple, but love a system that can do simple and delve into complex. BASH! is deceptively surprising with that. You'd not think that it *could* until you really dig in.

The only "problem" is Character Point Build value bloat. You sometimes will end up spending 10-20 more points than the character is *actually* worth in terms of power when doing the more complex builds.
That (unfortunately) can break down the BEST rule in BASH! - the Hero Point/Dice and Setback Pts rule. Because if you have Wolverine built at 42 pts (which he could easily be if done complex) he'd not really have the *true* bang for his buck as a more simple (but just as "effective") 25 pts build.

It'd be interesting to consider an optional rule to create that filled in a set number of points exclusively for this more dense build out. Something like 2:1 or even 5:1 for adding things like Skillful, Immunities, Boosts, extra ADS, HQs, etc... etc... Things that add to the character but don't add to combat/action or skill check effectiveness EACH issue.

These would be the things a more simple build would "take care of" regularly with Hero Dice (Power Stunts) during game-play. However... if a builder wants to "show" all the potentials to a newbie player it's handy to have in the build.

For Example:
Does everyone know that Mjolnir can swing to open Dimensional Gates? Do folks remember that Spider-Man used to sling "web-balls" at villains or make all sorts of "items" (such as web-parachutes, etc...) with his web-shooters?

Probably not... but if you KNOW a character (or are making an original) sometimes it's fun to note in these type things for players that don't know the character.

An option (that I might use if/when I make a character dossier) would be to have extra build "modules" that could be added (with the cost noted to add) at the bottom of a character for these little extras.


Just thinking
-kev-

[MrJupiter]

keveperrine, that would be a great idea: having talored ideas for Hero Die expenditures suitable for this character right on the character sheet!

[Nestor]

keveperrine, that would be a great idea: having talored ideas for Hero Die expenditures suitable for this character right on the character sheet!

I heartily agree. As an experienced con GM, I find it very helpful for the players to have roleplaying tips and advice right on the character sheet to help them get into their characters.

[drkrash]

My. I posted this and then went away and found a conversation happening!

To clarify: I wasn't suggesting that there was a "right" way to make characters. If people like making detailed write-ups with lots of details and enhancements and limitations, go for it.

My concern was honestly a bit more for the BASH brand itself, which Chris' response has set my mind at ease.

As a long time Champions player, I've watched the game expand from the simple blue book 1st edition to the monster I would never touch. How did this happen? By wanting to stretch the system to include other ways of doing things.

That's all. I seem to be in a minority and I'm cool with that. If I can ever get Everwatch out the door, don't expect super-detailed builds!