Zenith Comics Presents: Sunman & Arachnaman 27/02/11

[AslanC]

Thanks Urbwar.

Yeah I don't think every game needs to be about getting the most out of it for the same cost.

In the case of Silverbolt he can move fast and attack twice and have that 3rd Panel if he needs it.

Sure I could have given him Super Speed 5, but it would have cost exactly the same in the end, but this controls the amount of things he can do in a scene.

2 panels + 1 hth attack not 3 panels

To further expound why I allow Gadget as a catch all limitation, I should really call it Equipment or Device or Focus, since that's the point. Without it you don't have it to use. Which is a limitation in an of itself.

Taking Silverbolt as an example. If he were to run or so anything super speed without the protective suit he immediately takes x2DM Damage. Just for answering the door real fast! He NEEDS that suit to avoid the damage. Therefor giving it the Gadget limitation (Or Equipment, Device or Focus YMMV) is just fine with me, cause it no requires him to change into it.

Which he can't do at super speed without hurting himself, so there's his normal panel gone if he isn't in costume.

Oh and how is he going to carry that helmet and suit around? In a duffel bag? Maybe.

That's more than plenty reasons to all them both to be 1 point cheaper without them being "easily taken" or "ammunition" or "fragile".

As I said above, YMMV.

[AslanC]

Here's yet another new PC for the Zenith Universe Reboot!

[urbwar]

very nice. Love how most of his powers require he be shrunk down first.

I know you probably mentioned this elsewhere, but what program do you use to make the logos?

[AslanC]

Thanks urbwar... I make them in Photoshop alas.

[Michael]

I'm not sure why you want to make Silverbolt more complicated by giving him a training power when his background story doesn't seem to reflect it.
Also, your description of what you're calling the equipment limitation sounds more like a weakened form of the normal disadvantage.

As for Dragonfly, you need to specify what aspect of agility is being boosted since boost is normally supposed to only be used for attacking, defending, or using a certain power.

[AslanC]

I'm not sure why you want to make Silverbolt more complicated by giving him a training power when his background story doesn't seem to reflect it.

I not sure what you mean by "training power" but if you mean because he is new, then yes his background would reflect that. I also am not sure what you mean by complicated.

Also, your description of what you're calling the equipment limitation sounds more like a weakened form of the normal disadvantage.

This would be a YMMV situation for me, since it works for my players and I, and as I can make it limiting in many ways by the sake of it just being equipment, including being shut off, taken control of (for the electronics in the helmet) or being damaged in combat and losing it's protection (the body suit for example).

As for Dragonfly, you need to specify what aspect of agility is being boosted since boost is normally supposed to only be used for attacking, defending, or using a certain power.

I figured since it was linked to his Shrinking, it would be used with that power. Though if I think about it more (and seeing it in action tonight at play) it does exploit a loop-hole.

Might have to change that. Too tired to think about it now.

[Lindharin]

As for Dragonfly, you need to specify what aspect of agility is being boosted since boost is normally supposed to only be used for attacking, defending, or using a certain power.

That's not my understanding. The rules say you can use Boost on a stat under "certain conditions or circumstances". According to the examples, a circumstantial boost is Boost Agility for Attack Rolls, or Boost Mind only for Powers X,Y and Z, which is what you are thinking of. A conditional boost includes things like Boost Brawn when angry, and in that case it boosts all aspects of the stat, not just lifting or soak or damage. The limitation for a conditional boost is that it isn't on all the time, not what use the stat is being put to.

So Boost while using Shrinking is a conditional boost. At that point, it becomes a narrator's call whether "only while shrunk" is sufficiently limiting, but I would allow it (and have in my game). There is a lot of the game where the character isn't going to be small, so it certainly feels valid to me.

And in support of that, if you look in the Tiny archetype on page 111, it even suggests linking Boost with Shrinking in the "Variations on the Theme" paragraph.

[Morsamare]

So Silverbolt's armor is fragile? Well with that limitation I can definitely understand the damaging weakness now, 10 hits and 10 soak to destroy it and leave you taking 2DM every attack is pretty harsh. I'm guessing thats why you have swift strike, a means to attack that won't cause damage in that situation.

Dragonfly has effectively 8 agility when shrunk? That seems a little high. (2 base, 3 from shrinking & 3 from linked boost)

[AslanC]

So Silverbolt's armor is fragile? Well with that limitation I can definitely understand the damaging weakness now, 10 hits and 10 soak to destroy it and leave you taking 2DM every attack is pretty harsh. I'm guessing thats why you have swift strike, a means to attack that won't cause damage in that situation.

It isn't meant to be nice In all seriousness it would have to be a Called Shot to breach or damage it, since otherwise first hit of the fight he would be naked and useless. Again though, YMMV

Dragonfly has effectively 8 agility when shrunk? That seems a little high. (2 base, 3 from shrinking & 3 from linked boost)

Yeah he was built thinking that the +3 from shrinking was a Dice Bonus and not a Multiplier bonus.

So that may get reworked... maybe make him loose the boost and get Attack Weak point or something

[Michael]

AslanC,

I not sure what you mean by "training power" but if you mean because he is new, then yes his background would reflect that. I also am not sure what you mean by complicated.

Swift strike is an intense training power. Silverbolt is described a someone suddenly getting powers from an accident, not from rigorous training.
By complicated, I mean having different power origin types, and that 3 actions a round is simpler than 2 actions and a third action of only a particular type with a hit penalty.

This would be a YMMV situation for me, since it works for my players and I, and as I can make it limiting in many ways by the sake of it just being equipment, including being shut off, taken control of (for the electronics in the helmet) or being damaged in combat and losing it's protection (the body suit for example).

Which is why I first brought it up since it means his armor is fragile and easily destroyed by one good hit. Or I suppose yoinked off by one agility check.

Lindharin,

That's not my understanding.

I was practically quoting the last part of page 53 and beginning of page 54 in the Bash Ultimate Edition Rules.

[Michael]

And I can easily see someone with shrinking having attack weak point.

[Lindharin]

Lindharin,

That's not my understanding.

I was practically quoting the last part of page 53 and beginning of page 54 in the Bash Ultimate Edition Rules.

Yes, but you are looking at only one sentence about one half of the power. First sentence of Boost says "This power increases one of your stats- but only under certain conditions or circumstances." (emphasis mine).

It then has a paragraph showing the differences between a conditional Boost (eg, Boost Brawn when Angry), or a circumstantial Boost (eg, Boost Mind with a Power). It says "An example of a conditional Boost would be..." and gives one example. It then says "An example of a circumstantial Boost might be..." and gives a separate example. It seems pretty clear to me that Boost doesn't require you to pick BOTH a condition AND a circumstance for the power, it is an either/or.

It then concludes with two sentences:

The condition that triggers a Boost should be something that is temporary, and not necessarily in the character’s control.

and

The circumstance that a Boost is used under should only have one major application- i.e. only for attacking, only for defending, only with a certain power, etc.

Throughout the power it defines two separate uses for Boost - conditional or circumstantial. And you are right, the circumstantial use only applies to one thing - attacks, or damage, or soak, or one power, or whatever - but it applies to that thing all the time (unless you add a disadvantage to further limit it). A character like Diamond Lil from Alpha Flight might only have a Brawn 1 or 2, but she probably has Boost Brawn for Soak Only (and Armor 3, of course) that applies to all soak rolls she makes; it isn't limited by a condition, but it only applies to Soak.

The second use of the Boost power that you seem to be ignoring is the conditional use. This provides the full stat (ie, Boost Brawn applies to both your soak and your melee damage) but only some of the time, like a character who gets brawnier when something happens - he gets damaged, he gets mad, he is flying, he is shrunk, etc.

This is supported by the archetypes. Look at all the archetypes with boost. Most of them use circumstantial boost, like the blaster who takes Boost Mind with Energy Blasts. That is a circumstantial boost, not a conditional boost, and it has no condition - it isn't Boost Mind with Energy Blasts Only While Mad. Conditional boosts and circumstantial boosts are separate things.

Point wise, this makes sense. Boost costs half the amount of just buying the stat, so as long as the condition or circumstance limits the use of the boost so it applies no more than either half the time (for a condition) or half of your stat-based rolls (for a circumstance), it makes the point costs come out right.

EDIT: If a narrator feels that "Boost Agility Only While Shrunk" is going to apply more than half the time and therefore is "too good" for the point cost, that is a judgment call. In my game, I allow it, and I think the Tiny archetype in the book supports that, but I wouldn't be upset if I was playing in a game where the narrator disagreed. It is more of a borderline case than some others I could think of. But as long as the narrator and the player agree, it's all good.

[Michael]

The character sheet should specifiy which circumstance or condition the boost applies to.

It seems pretty clear to me that Boost doesn't require you to pick BOTH a condition AND a circumstance for the power, it is an either/or.

I don't know why you think someone said that.

EDIT: If a narrator feels that "Boost Agility Only While Shrunk" is going to apply more than half the time and therefore is "too good" for the point cost, that is a judgment call.

Taking "only while shrunk" and linking it to shrinking might be a problem, since as AslanC pointed out, that could be taking advantage of a loophole. Dragonfly instead could drop the link, or have shrinking linked to agility boost for defense, which would not be taking the same point break twice (agility boost only working when shrunk, and agility boost being linked to shrinking).

[BeardedDork]

RAW clearly supports this use of Boost, I really don't see the problem.

[Lindharin]

I don't know why you think someone said that.

I didn't think you said it, but I was covering the bases. You stated that every boost is "normally supposed to only be used for attacking, defending, or using a certain power". That meant you were either ignoring the rules for conditional boosts, or you thought everything written about conditional boosts applied to circumstantial boosts. I tried to address both possibilities. That it was the linking you objected to wasn't clear.

Taking "only while shrunk" and linking it to shrinking might be a problem

I can agree with that, and I would buy the Boost without linking.